how can an axle break when its not locked or on low gear?

[ahana]

hey every one, i just wanted to know if an axle could break without locking it or using it in lowgear. isnt the tire going to just spin?Because a have been planning on changing steering rack and tie rods for 37". I have changes to the rcv outer cv joints. thank you.

 

[M22KLARS]

By axle do you mean the differential?

 

[ahana]

yes.

 

[06 H3]

If the tire is just gonna spin it would break. If its spinning and grabs traction it puts force on the components and will break parts

 

[08SolarFlareH3]

Its pretty much the opposite, there is a much better chance you will break a diff or half shaft from spinning. Its the sudden traction of a spinning tire that usually breaks things. The tire is spinning and when it finally finds traction, that sudden force (from spinning to stop) is placed on the front diff and half shafts. You are better off using a low range/gear and a locker to prevent or at least limit the amount of spinning that causes damage.

 

[4speedfunk]

The drivers-side stub axle (inside the tube) can easily break. It doesn't take a lead foot or mega-rpms to do it, either. You must be vigilant and avoid "spin and hook" with an H3...at all costs. I have broke two of em...one with stock tires, one with 35"s. If the shaft stays in one piece...the ring gear teeth will go instead. Most of the time one leads to another and the whole enchalada ends up junk. Both of my breaks happened with an Adv. Pak t-case in low range. I'm not sure who did the calcs at GM...but they must have had a few drinks at lunch that day! That little AAM-7" can't possibly take the torque generated by the combination of parts upstream of it >>>....200ft/lbs at the motor x 3:00 first gear x 4:1 t-case x 4:56 gears = SNAP! No way that flemsy Canyon/Colorado axle is gonna survive that much torque...especially with 6000lbs and 35"s tires. Add questionable (import-sourced) parts and an completely inadequate mounting system...and well, you know the rest. So be careful...don't spin (yeah I know its no fun...but neither is paying $$$ for a new axle). Do this one thing...and it should hold up just fine (for awhile).

You're not alone. Myself and several other H3 offroaders have learned the hard way that sometimes you gotta "wuss-out", and know when to call it quits. This totally sucks and I don't know the real fix short of an entire front axle upgrade. Which is proving to be neither cheap or simple.

 

[f5moab]

I don't know if wuss out is the right phrase, but I know what the vehicle can and cannot do and how to manage the skinny pedal is very important. I don't care what type of diff you have, they can all break when not driven correctly.

With the very first H3s released, the internal gears were not hardened correctly. Mid-year 06 harder gears were produced. I saw proof on Hells's on day that it must have worked, I saw one guy constantly spin his fronts and slam the tires down on slick rock and nothing snapped (slick rock is NOT slick, it is rough).

The other problem with the aluminum front diff is if you locked your front wheels up against a ledge, and skinny pedal to the floor, you start to stretch the diff...not good.

And larger tires put more stress on the diff, as well as more weight.

I have climbed a heck of a lot of ledges, driven through miles of sand, including sugar sand and so far, no front diff has gone boom. But could it go boom? YES. But I have seen quite a few D44s in this town that have gone boom in a vehicle that is about 800 lbs lighter.

The aluminum diff is not the ideal diff for this vehicle, BUT knowing what you can and can't do also helps.

 

[08H3]

A little off topic, but f5 brought up the aluminum diff, so I'll ask. I upgraded to the cast iron diff and while it may not make the perfect drivetrain, it's got to be an improvement. Just curious, but how many people have destroyed a diff in a CI carrier?

 

[4speedfunk]

Trailbreaker smoked his CI-locked diff about six weeks ago. Cast iron has got to be an improvement but, I feel there are bigger issues than simply the material its made from. I would still keep on the shy side if you start to spin. With the H3...you either crawl, winch, or find another path. Don't try to rev your way out of a pickle...thats when carnage happens. Snow, sand, and mud are pretty forgiving because they don't allow the tires to get a sudden bite like roots or rocks do.

F5 is right...anything can be broken. If you're out wheeling in harsh terrain...its just comes with the territory (regardless of the vehicle). What makes breaking the H3 so frustrating is the lack of simple, cheap, solutions to upgrade it. Ironically...my current diff is from a 2006 model. It seems tighter, and is holding up better than either of the 2008 axles my rig came with. I'm not sure tooth hardness has anything to do with it...my failure appeared to be the axle-shaft itself (not the diff). I think its very important to keep all three mounting bushings tight-tight-tight. Any movement or softening of the bushings allows stuff to flex independently from each other....not good. I recommend taking a turn or two on both outboard bushings and the snout bushing at every oil change...to keep stuff from floppin around. That AAM is literally trying to rip itself apart, and weak bushings allow it to do so. There's a similar issue with the steering rack. Gotta keep all that stuff tight.

 

[ahana]

thanks 08h3 for bringing this topic up. i didnt know about the aluminium and the casti iron. luckily i have the CI. i hope some day there will be an aftermarket conversion regardless the money. ill pay good for my baby!

 

[TrailBreaker]

Yes, I did nearly destroy the entire internals of the front diff one day on the trail, and I do have the Cast Iron front. Here is what happened: Going up a rocky, loose dirt hill climb with a slight turn to the left in it, got hung up with the front tire on a rock, and the rear tires hung up as well. I backed up a little, and tried a different line, which allowed one front tire to loose contact with the ground, as the truck tried to gain traction it slid slightly and then the airborn tire made contact with the ground and the truck bounced to the left and jammed the drivers tire into an embancment which is what probably broke the tie rod. I am sure the quick drop and sudden stop of the tire is what broke the CV axles. Also the force of the V8, with the TCase in Low and front diff locked aided in the front going boom.

Now contrary to 4speed's situation, my drivers stub shaft didnt break, only a slight twist in the teeth at the inboard side of the shaft which then broke the spider gear it rides in, inside the carrier. Also the force of the V8 is what lead to the sheared pins on the eLocker.

Every offroad situation is different. I have wheeled this particular trail many times and never before had to even pull which line, let alone a full faiure of the front end.


I will say though, that the most likely culprit of front diff fauilures are from too aggressive driving style. The H3 has an amazing traction control system, and will get you through alot of things I have found. And have now adjusted my driving style to reflect that. I recently ran a trail near me this past weekend entirely in 4High Lock. And in several spots I used to put in 4Low to get over rocks and ledges. I noticed by keeping the RPM low (max 2000) the traction control would kick in and send the power to the wheel with traction and pull me up and over obstales with realative ease. Is this proper? I am not sure, maybe some one else with more technical knowlege will chime in, bit it did work for me. It is also the same principle I applied when wheeling in Moab in April. Now the terrain on the east coast is WAY different than the rocks out west, over here it is alot of loose granite and loose dirt on top of rocks and ledges so traction is for less than desireable. Which is why alot of us East Coasters tend to be more aggressive with the skinny pedal, we are just trained that way and it is needed alot here.

The lack of front end upgradeable parts really doesnt help out those of us who do need to be more aggressive with our trucks. RCV axles, BulletProof tie rods, etc, only send the potential faluire points further down the driveline. The question becomes do they help prevent those falures or not? The small size of the diff is also a weak point for those of us running larger than stock tires. I am sure that under "factory" conditions everything would last a long time. But none of us want to run a full factory truck. Personally I want to run a 37" tire on a Rancho lifted truck. And thats so I can get more clearance front, rear, and center (I have a long H3T). But by going to a 37" tire, I know the potential for breakage is multiplied exponentially vs a factory set up. And no disrespect to Bebe, Recon, or 4Speeds builds, but I am do not want to devieate that far from the original design until the original parts are no longer available. Which might be sooner than we expect. Remember, most of the H3 drivtrain is specific to the H3. I have been spending soem free time at work trying to cross the part numbers to componants and coming up empty.

For a true upgrade, a full conversion is the only way to go, at this point.

 

[06 H3]

I am not making excuses because we shouldnt have to ignore the fact that its not the strongest but I would say the IFS front diff we have is comparable to a Dana 30, correct? How many guys run Dana 30's on 35's successfully? I wouldnt say everyone and they usually get laughed at if they plan to run 35's on a Dana 30. What they do is an axle swap. Simple for them its easy because of what they can use. Now my question for the Hummer geniuses is this, Is it possible to go down to Off road evolution and have they set up a BOLT IN IFS setup that has a ring gear of an 8.5 or bigger. If so I will march my ass down there and have them see what they can do. They are a company and have the option to sell this on the market for us. It would answer alot of problems. Even though the set up isnt perfect since they run off of 3 bushings that have no way of working together it is still a great option and they may be able to come up with other ideas to beef it up. I want a bolt on soultion for the average joe without having to take the torch to it. The only thing we wouldnt gain is flex. But flex is overrated...I get through most the stuff the jeep guys do with flex, we have a good traction control system and lets put it this way. Flex is useful but only one aspect of wheeling and I got this sticker too

 

[TrailBreaker]

06H3,I am with you 150% man! if there was a bolt in solution I would be all over it. But in the eye of a large company, does the few numbers of an H3/H3T justify the research time to produce the product? Once the handful of us would by the product, how big is the market then? its kinda like 4Speed and his H3T rear bumpers, once the handful of us bought them, thats it, and while those of us that got them are hugely thankful, but there isnt a longterm profit margin in them.

Unfortunately it seems as though we will need to come up with fixes ourselves.

 

[06 H3]

You are correct. I think we need to get a handful of us to do something, but on the other hand ORE has done alot of one off stuff, Recons rig, an F150 with a Dana 70 and Dana 80, a custom H1. They specialize in JK's but I have talked to them and they said they could even build me a built up IFS they have done it before for other rigs. I can even contact Randy Ellis they built up the Ultimate Adventure F150, they specialize in IFS/IRS. If these possibilities come true I think we would have a near unstoppable H3(T). Until we we bitch how 40's breaks our axles I think we all gotta work together on this and it can be done. I am new to this custom stuff but I am willing to jump right in. Who knows maybe in a few years I will be putting together these axles for us or dealing with dynatrac to make the pumpkins for us. The Hummer Enthusiasts that will wheel Hummers 10+ years out from now will have a good source of stuff by then in a small close knit community and I am hoping to still be around by then. These are great vehicles but like everything else in life nothing is perfect, bombproof and unstoppable but we can continue to get closer to that. I may give ORE a call later this week and see what they have to say.

 

[MUTAINT]

The drivers-side stub axle (inside the tube) can easily break. It doesn't take a lead foot or mega-rpms to do it, either.

Just curious, but how many people have destroyed a diff in a CI carrier?

4speed: Like this?

08H3: This was a CI front diff:

 

[4speedfunk]

Yeah Mute! Thats the critter! I'm so confident in this part's failure rate, that I actually bet a service manager that I could take a brand new Champ Edition off the lot and bring it back with a broken axle in less than 10 minutes. Of course he declined the bet...(but I learned all I needed to know from the look on his face). Six months later...the Hummer sign was off the building, and that chump was probably baggin groceries.

:giggle:

View attachment 1492

 

[ahana]

06h3 when you will make the call to ORE please inform us and i hope you have good news for all of us!

 

[TrailBreaker]

You are correct. I think we need to get a handful of us to do something, but on the other hand ORE has done alot of one off stuff, Recons rig, an F150 with a Dana 70 and Dana 80, a custom H1. They specialize in JK's but I have talked to them and they said they could even build me a built up IFS they have done it before for other rigs. I can even contact Randy Ellis they built up the Ultimate Adventure F150, they specialize in IFS/IRS. If these possibilities come true I think we would have a near unstoppable H3(T). Until we we bitch how 40's breaks our axles I think we all gotta work together on this and it can be done. I am new to this custom stuff but I am willing to jump right in. Who knows maybe in a few years I will be putting together these axles for us or dealing with dynatrac to make the pumpkins for us. The Hummer Enthusiasts that will wheel Hummers 10+ years out from now will have a good source of stuff by then in a small close knit community and I am hoping to still be around by then. These are great vehicles but like everything else in life nothing is perfect, bombproof and unstoppable but we can continue to get closer to that. I may give ORE a call later this week and see what they have to say.

Dude, put me on the list for an upgraded, bolt in Carrier replacement. While youre at it, can you see if they will do a coil-over set up vs the torsion bars? Maybe as a seperate upgrade, but still be compatible. And adjustible set up would likely be best so it could be used on a stock set up or Rancho lift.

I have been looking into a 3500 Chevrolet full IFS/IRS set up. I know the Chevy doesnt have IRS, but by taking a front diff and turning it backwards to run in the rear of the truck it would turn in the correct rotation. The parts arent expencive, about $1000 per corner in parts and then $1800 for each center section. Then there is the Labor and fab time involved. Custom driveshafts, etc.

I also looked into using an H1 set up as well, cost of those parts are about the same, however the H1 uses portal axles at the hubs meaning the drivtrain needs to rotate backwards in order to work properly, not to mention the weight of the parts themselves. The H1 set up would also require more fab to make work and therefor likely be more expencive.

I am all about a simple bolt in solution though, and I know my ideas are far from it. But they might be the solution if there are no other choises.

 

[skeptic]

All this talk about swapping in stronger IFS parts, custom this and that... I'm curious why nobody is talking about swapping in a SFA. A lot of work I know, but people do this with Durangos, Toyotas, and who knows what else. It's not something I'm interested in, I like the way my T rides on the road, but for serious offroading the flex and strength of a solid axle is hard to match with IFS. What I don't know is what it would take to get traction control and stabilitrac to work, but if you are going that far may as well ditch it and use a setup similar to the Jeep Rubicon - a locking limited slip and no stabilitrac.

Ya, the H1 setup is another way to go, but to me it seems far more extreme than what seems to me to be a simple in comparison SFA swap.

 

[06 H3]

Trailbreaker friday morning I will give them a call and tell them all about this. The chevy idea is a good one too. Skeptic the reason I am not going sfa is for many reasons. In the beginning I wanted to but through watching and learning I realize sfa is not always going to be the only option. Ifs is the new wave. They dnt have the research and design into it yet. Solid axles can ride nice if u do a setup like ore does on their jks but that's expensive as hell but stock for stock we have the nice ride. The flex on ifs isn't great but there can be improvements. Everyone laughed at Shannon campbell for wheeling ifs in the king of the hammers race and he won. Ultimate adventure which run the hardest trails around used ifs this year and ran with the hardcore buggies on 40s. Give it time and ifs will be desirable. How many rigs that come with solid axles stock now? 3. The market will have to adapt. Its funny how one year ago I was dying for the sfa and one trip at last chance canyon and reading bebes build changed my mindset completely. Im all for ifs and I say it proudly now lol. With a bolt in setup we will keep reliability too!

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[06 H3]

I bet we would have alot of sfa swaps if it wasn't for the electronics. That's why toyota owners do it. No electronics to deal with

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[theBroken]

I bet we would have alot of sfa swaps if it wasn't for the electronics. That's why toyota owners do it. No electronics to deal with

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What electronics are you referring to?

 

[06 H3]

Abs and traction control

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[06 H3]

And didn't recon need custom tone rings made for the abs?

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[TrailBreaker]

A solid axle swap is by far the esiest and least expence and definitely tried and true. However, for me its mnore about Heritage. The H1 came with IFS/IRS and it is an amazing machine. Personally I want to keep the "exoticness" of the Hummer without going backwards in technology.

Independant suspensions are coming around, slowly. Look at the newer Land Rovers, 4 wheel independant with an offroad system that detects when one tire goes up it sends hydrolic/air pressure to the opposite side to force that tire down. I have a Land Rover, and have wheeled it with others and they rival the H3 on capability. That has been part of my inspiration on the 4wheel Independant Suspension thought on my 3T.

And as far as electronics are going, I am sure 06H3 is talking about the Traction Control and ABS electronics. They are a pain to deal with, and definitely something we will need to deal with in whatever venture we decide to take the Hummers.