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Front end bounce.

06 H3

a.k.a. "The Jackal"
Messages
9,506
Location
Meridian, ID
I experience this on steep climbs and rutted out hills but why does the H3 want to bounce more then other 4x4s do? I thought this would bring up a good discussion in terms of suspension and tips on how to handle the front end bounce.
 

Scarsman

Sponsor
Messages
1,561
Location
Monroe, WA
I have seen this. I think it is a weight balance issue. I think the H3 is heavier towards the rear, plus if you have a bunch of gear in the back, this makes it worse. I have wondered if the alphas do a little better with a little heavier engine? I don't know. If you watch one on a steep hill you can see that the front suspension is extended, and you can tell there is just no weight on it.
 

ReconH3

Guardian Angel
Messages
2,288
Location
Raleigh, NC
It's a combination of many things. Center of gravity is definitely an issue. Tire pressure is another. You have to find out what pressure creates the least bounce without risking breaking a bead if you don't have beadlocks. Shock dampening is also an issue. You need a shock that has better compression and rebound dampening. The OEM ones are really designed for comfort of daily driving. Ranchos tend to be pretty bad in the rebound department too. The adjustable one only stiffen compression.


"Ex Umbris Venimus"

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alrock

El Diablo
Staff member
Messages
10,677
Location
Scottsdale
I know Bebe knows a lot about this as it is one of the things she was watching for on her truck.
 

06 H3

a.k.a. "The Jackal"
Messages
9,506
Location
Meridian, ID
In terms of gear I threw everything that is normally in the trunk in the 2nd row and I felt a difference. I gotta try and get more up front and eventually look into shocks to help this problem.

Looking forward to hearing more. Does lower gearing help at all?

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ReconH3

Guardian Angel
Messages
2,288
Location
Raleigh, NC
Gearing doesn't affect directly. What it does affect is that you don't hit the obstacle as fast, but that really depends on the driver. ;) I plan to run the spare behind the front row seats, when I'm wheeling alone. If your vehicle does start bouncing back off ASAP. That's because it's the best way to break cvs.


"Ex Umbris Venimus"

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Timgco

Hugh Hefner
Messages
765
Location
Colorado
There are so many variables to look at: wheelbase * weight distribution * traction * tire preasure * throttle input * driving style

Those will all influence how your truck will climb on the very steep obstacles.

different valved shocks from front to rear can also play a part. a set of shocks in the rear that are shot and newer higher valved shocks up front will allow more sag to the rear causing the front to get light. I think you'll notice a difference on your upcoming susp change also. However, traction will still be the same with your tires.

I have not seen the obstacle you ran, but in any steep climb, most all trucks get light in the front end. once you loose traction, the tires are grabbing, than slipping, than grabbing: you get bounce/ This is how most trucks break things. when they grip after spinning fast/ bouncing, parts give/ let loose.

BTM'ing will help you control that wheel spin and bouncing. Lower gearing can also help. Above all, having front and rear lockers will make a huge difference on those climbs. After seeing a H3A with f/r lockers in Moab, I was suprised at how easily it climbed. however, there is cost invovled in getting that front locker with upgraded diff to support that extra torque up front.
 

Hunner

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,334
Location
Arkansas
All of the above plus my thoughts:
The Alpha has a bit more front end weight with the CI diff and V8. I have to look that up but total was not much, I think, maybe not that much. The OEM shocks by Tennco on that offroad package I believe are a bit different than the ones with the I-5 adventure. I use the Bilstien for now. They seem to fill the gap and are one of the few shocks with the clevis mount on the bottom, that fit. Stiffer is not always better but control in each direction is what I want. I think in my case they tamed down the bouncing as I run lots of gravel and dirt Forest Service roads that have stutterbumps. I started feeling the OEM shocks failing around 27,000 miles and lots of wheel hop. I keep shying away from shocks designed for extended higher speed constant running with the external reservoir to dissipate heat like in desert conditions since I rarely do that and expense. I'm not ruling them out, I just have not found the length I want either. There seemed to be some confusion on the specs on some of those and mounting issues, for now. The Alpha torsions are stiffer as well, but I'm not sure that is an advantage or not on steep hill climbing and the bouncing issues. More controlled movement might be the desired set up for that. I guess it's all dependent on conditions and driver technique.
I could tell a difference in the Alpha after having an 06 first and then running the same hill climbs.
Cranking up the torsions or a lift will also, in my opinion, lighten the front end attitude and will require different driving technique.
Slap a brushguard/winch mount and winch up there, like a Warn Power plant and that moves some weight forward.
Like you mentioned, I also keep my extra weight behind the front seats down low with the rear seat removed except now I keep the single seat with my granddaughters "throne" in there most of the time except on trips. I also rarely carry an extra spare but when I do it is on a light weight rack just behind the sunroof or mid vehicle not at the back end on a full length heavy rack.
On really steep hill climbs the 06 would start to do that as I reached the steepest part, had lost some moderate speed and the weight to tire patch area became inadequate to propel the H3. However, (one of my favorite words) engaging the rear locker BEFORE attempting these same obstacles reduced that front end bouncing by pushing the front end forward rather than as much hopping while losing traction in one area. The source by the way on IFS of broken tie rods, cv shafts and such. It's the sudden stop that kills them.
That type of wheeling here is why I sometimes think the front locker on the lighter end might not be a cure all. I can see going up against a red rock wall that having the front end locked will pull the front up and then the rear locked push it on up, when possible.
It also helps at some point to just shut er down, back down and get a different line rather than mashing the skinny pedal and keep hoping, or is that hopping? I think the lower gear ratio gives more controlled power to the ground and reduces the tendency to use excess speed. The H3 also has a reduced sensitivity of the throttle in low lock helping to prevent over compensating by spinning up the engine and tires.
If you are comparing your H3 to other lighter vehicles on the same obstacle your going to have to come up with the conclusion it may take a different approach for the H3. In some cases an H3 will hit it right while the next may not. I have learned in a large group to give it a try and if it's not your day, take a strap and live to die another day for the benifit of the group and your vehicle.
I still sense a bit of competition in your blood about that which is good just don't let it affect the way you drive.
I always say with my friends, in Heeps and Rovers, hey lets just see what the H3 will do, I don't know either. Our first few runs at Superlift with the group that guides in 06 was our first chance to see what the H3 would do. I was happy with the performance and the vultures sort of walked away quietly after having come back to the edge to see what the H3 would do. I was impressed at how it crawled up and over obstacles others flogged it, spun the tires, chewed them up, bounced around, slammed trees and put on speed to try to make it the first try.
I just locked up, crawled and let the H3 do it's thing, I have a winch!
Can I have an amen brother Hummer owners??? I'm preaching to the choir, amen Hum on..............
and I drove mine over there and home, whilst in comfort with the AC on and Satellite radio playing the layed back 70's
sorry I tried to keep it down to no scrolling.
This is one of those situations showing an H3 doing it's thing, but you can see the front end ground contact is not very much.
8x7383.jpg
 
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06 H3

a.k.a. "The Jackal"
Messages
9,506
Location
Meridian, ID
I agree with dave. Thanks for all the input. I really appreciate the tips as I try and progress to a better wheeler and understanding our 4x4s.

Two topics come to mind in this conversation...
#1 is wheelbase and the factory rake.

While shocks and weight distribution are easier fixes then a wheelbase how is our wheelbase for climbing? Every length is better or worse depending on the situation...shorter for rocks longer for climbing. In petersons 4 wheel magazine they felt the 3T was an amazing climber while the H3 paired up with f/r lockers stock were unstoppable in the rocks. For climbing is the 3 wheelbase a bit short? Personally I don't think so. I think it's more on a driver and rig setup determines as far u can go. What's your thoughts?

As for the factory rake...while it isn't appealing to the eye wouldn't
that rake help while climbing as it aids in more traction off road?

#2 is to answer hunners question on competition.

I am competitive...mainly with my brother. Ill never forget how we used to argue and compete about sports and video games. Now its wheeling. Its not that bad but its there...ask tim lol


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06 H3

a.k.a. "The Jackal"
Messages
9,506
Location
Meridian, ID
as for line choice life is made so much easier when wheeling with H4O. they can help on good lines when I am with other groups I take the lines they normally take which normally isn't the best for me.

Gotta get to moab! I hear it teaches u all this stuff :)
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Steve #1

Well-Known Member
Messages
534
Location
TEXAS
I have seen this. I think it is a weight balance issue. I think the H3 is heavier towards the rear, plus if you have a bunch of gear in the back, this makes it worse. I have wondered if the alphas do a little better with a little heavier engine? I don't know. If you watch one on a steep hill you can see that the front suspension is extended, and you can tell there is just no weight on it.

I weighed my truck this morning on the single axle scale we have at work. With me in it (140#), a 10# backpack in the passenger seat, a couple shackles, jumper cables, and an air compressor in the back with 1/4 tank of fuel it was F/R 2580/2540.

IMHO the biggest factor is the cushy on road ride. While you feel the front end bouncing, I think it stems more from axle wrap in the rear. As the rear springs load and unload the weight is transferred to and from the front. Add that to any bounce you have in the front from the terrain and it makes it that much worse.
 

Hunner

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,334
Location
Arkansas
Your gross weight is 5120?
Mine with the normal compliment of stuff plus some more thrown in when I travel runs, (gotta find the last scale ticket), but about 6080 to 6600.
GVWR being 6100.
I have repeatedly gone thru all that and I am down to what I feel comfortable with to get myself and my H3 back to where I could get more help if I needed it.
There can always be that one thing I need and don't have.
It's just the way I started off with as many solo runs as I make if I cannot get up a small group.
I don't have much trouble with front end bounce:shifty:
 
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06 H3

a.k.a. "The Jackal"
Messages
9,506
Location
Meridian, ID
Im bumping this as I have the gears turning yet again on suspensions...

At rowher flats I noticed something and that was front end traction on steep hill climbs. The difference was between Kyles H3 and mine. I tried to rule out some differences that could of made a difference. We both had similar weight in the rear seeing we both had a full trunk. I had no 2nd spare and neither did he. I have flats CV's and hes torsion bar cranked, I have a winch on front, he doesnt. I aired down to 20, he was at 25. So with all that said I would assume that airing down has a big factor, the extra weight on the front helps me but what I am most interested in is the torsion bars and how they can affect your hill climbing ability.

My buddy in the jeep noticed when I crawled up my tires looked very planted and had ample traction. Kyle did not, he bounced. With the arguments of spring rates changing with the cranking I think we can all agree that the actual spring rate is the same, you are not changing the t bar itself but the torsion bar is progressive rate so it gets stiffer the higher you crank which helps the bouncing. Correct?

So if we put it back into the same situation with a stock cranked bar would that be enough to make a difference? Idk, just thinking out loud to stir up some conversation.


With all that said, I wonder if cranking the torsion bar does a disservice to us on hills, the higher the spring rate you will bounce more.
 

alrock

El Diablo
Staff member
Messages
10,677
Location
Scottsdale
I think you also need to take into account your rear springs. If one truck's rear springs are softer then the back end will squat more readily, shifting the weight on the front tires. Also, can't remember: does Kyle have the 4:1 transfer case? Gearing makes a huge difference. An obvious example is the first big hill climb on Hell's Revenge. Base model H3s tend to chirp their tires on the way up; those with the 4:1 do not.

As for cranking the torsion bars, I agree. I don't know if it is spring rate or if it is a factor with the angle of the truck, pushing weight to the rear like I mentioned with the rear springs.
 

Sennin

Well-Known Member
Messages
453
Location
South Africa
I have the ARB bullbar + warn winch on the nose, thats well over 100kg (220LB's+) and with the torsion bars cranked from my experience the torsion bars are the culprit in the Hummer bouncing up obstacles. Even with rear and front difflock engaged I can still bounce the front If i'm a bit lead footed, but with time you learn when it will occur and when not. Running the 35"s on 0.6Bar (8.7 PSI) and trying not to exceed 1000RPM's, i now conqour most obstacles, but the downside is then the obstacle looks so easy to bystanders that they also want to do it, and then they bounce up there with a SFA rig "Cause if a IFS Hummer Idles up there, it should be a piece of cake for a SFA"

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Kyle

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,707
Location
Santa Clarita, CA
I think you also need to take into account your rear springs. If one truck's rear springs are softer then the back end will squat more readily, shifting the weight on the front tires. Also, can't remember: does Kyle have the 4:1 transfer case? Gearing makes a huge difference. An obvious example is the first big hill climb on Hell's Revenge. Base model H3s tend to chirp their tires on the way up; those with the 4:1 do not.

As for cranking the torsion bars, I agree. I don't know if it is spring rate or if it is a factor with the angle of the truck, pushing weight to the rear like I mentioned with the rear springs.
i have the 4:1 and rear locker
 

Steve #1

Well-Known Member
Messages
534
Location
TEXAS
First off, cranking the torsion bars DOES NOT change their spring rate it only changes where the LCA sits in relation to the cross member. You are not "loading" the spring. This is clear because as you adjust the torsion bar, the vehicle front end goes up thus reliving the force you just put on it. Second, torsion bars are linear springs. You may find arguments that say they aren't, but for all intents and purposes, torsion bars are linear springs.

Like I said in my other post, IMHO much of the front end bounce comes from the rear springs.

Now, if you are comparing an H3 sitting at stock height with one that has been lifted by adjusting the torsion bars, the biggest factor that will effect bouncing in the front is the progressive dampener (commonly called the bump stop). The front end of the stock truck is going to be partially supported by the progressive dampener you the suspension will compress very little. Bouncing will only be noticeable when the suspension extends. Now, when the front end has been lifted, there is more distance available for the suspension to compress because the front is not resting on the progressive dampener. Springs being springs, with more down movement you will also get more up movement on the rebound and the front end will bounce more.
 

4speedfunk

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,250
Location
Tardville
I think its a torsion bar thang. I've seen other torsion-sprung GM trucks (2500 full-sizes) damn near bounce themselves into a ditch. Stock, cranked, or lifted...it just seems to be the nature of the beast. I have a 99 Suburban, and I've noticed that on certain terrain...it can get caught in a vicious cycle of compression & rebound. Let's just say I have stains on my headliner from coffee! When a torsion bar truck starts hoppin...If you're not ready, you'll go completely rag-doll behind the wheel. It much more funny to witness than to be a part of.
 

alrock

El Diablo
Staff member
Messages
10,677
Location
Scottsdale
All that said, there are some benefits to bouncing off road.
[video=youtube_share;FBNM_p-Xyhk]http://youtu.be/FBNM_p-Xyhk[/video]
 

06 H3

a.k.a. "The Jackal"
Messages
9,506
Location
Meridian, ID
Lol damn. Ill take a bouncing front end then!

I did look at I was wrong the torsion bar is linear. So you think it's the rear springs? Bump stops?

If you are cranked you "top out" quicker and causes the bouncing? I need to look into torsion bars more and understand them a bit better
 

SuperBuickGuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,403
Location
Woodinville, WA
twisting the torsion bars limits your downward travel - it doesn't change the spring rate, but it rides a lot harder because the downward travel is limited (or non-existent). I agree with most said here - but add this, the single best thing you can do to any off-road vehicle is get good shocks and get them tuned for your vehicle I have rancho 9000s with a wireless controller - and I continue to be amazed at how much of a difference a vehicle reacts with different shock rates. Extreme offroad (you know, the Jeep show) did a blurb tuning their shocks on a full size solid axle swapped 92 up Blazer and the difference was nothing short of amazing.
 
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