Help with front end steering / suspension

[Synthetickiller]

I bought an 09' H2 with about 106k miles.
I don't know the previous owner's history, but I'm finding out very quickly he trashed the suspension & moved onto something else. Everything I've removed has been beat to hell. I figured I'd save money doing the upgrades myself & use the saved cash to put towards a diesel eventually. That's why I'm looking at upgraded parts. We don't rock climb here or run anything like the Baja. Everything here is mud, mud & more mud. I don't know if that'll effect what parts I should get, but that's why I'm asking. I'm running 35s, but would only upgrade to 37s, no lift.

So far, I've installed King shocks all around, Front & Rear Helwig anti-sway bar w/ new endlinks, bumpstops, rear axle tie rod & upper and lower rear control arms, scorpworx differential crossmember, new breaks & rotors, plus new wheels & tires. Everything I've listed below is what I think is left, minus an alignment.

I've spoken to a few people (Big2dabank & Scarsman, thanks guys!) on here about what to buy & also called the Dmax store. Unfortunately, Dmax couldn't recommend much to me other than one or two tid bits of info. So, I'm back here, looking for a consensus on what's good & what's not...

Front suspension.
I know I need replace the upper & lower control arms.

1.Uppers: Kryptonite UCAs (Should I save money with the Dmax XDs?)
2. Lowers: Kryptonite LCAs (Can anyone confirm that these fit?)
3. Keys: Mine are really rusted. Should I replace?
4. Torsion bars: no idea of these are bad.

Steering.
Everything seems to be shot.

5. Tie Rods: DMAX XD Tie Rods ($110 cheaper than Kryptonite & more heavy duty)
6. Idler Arm: Kryptonite death Grip ($300) vs Moog Idler/Pitman Arm pack ($190). (Is the Kryptonite worth the price & cutting the frame?)
7. Pitman Arm: Moog vs Moog XD (I don't see other choices, probably would go XD if it is overbuilt for only $30)
8. Pisk: heard it doesn't fit.
9. Centerlink: Been told by everyone this isn't necessary
10. Maybe look at the Dmaxstore Ultimate front en package stage 2 w/ appropriate options?
11. Anything else?

If you come this far through that wall of text, thank you! Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Zach]

Not that familiar with front suspension on 08 and up. Pretty sure tie rods are the same. Do know the hubs are different than 07 down. Can check specifics tomorrow and let you know

 

[Synthetickiller]

Not that familiar with front suspension on 08 and up. Pretty sure tie rods are the same. Do know the hubs are different than 07 down. Can check specifics tomorrow and let you know

I don't think there's much of a difference. On all sites I've seen, they are minor at most. Most things fit all years. It's just the inside & power train that are different. I've had no problems thus far.

How quickly do hub assemblies wear out? Mine don't see to be, but I should take a better look.

Thanks!

 

[twinmill28]

I'm at 80K on my deuce and replacing hub assemblies is on my list just because they are a known wear item and seem to go at bad times---like driving down the road. Having a tire fall off while vehicle in motion can never be good.
Replacing them is cheap insurance for a 106K truck, I wouldn't even think twice about.

Plus they seem pretty easy to do yourself.

 

[Synthetickiller]

I'm at 80K on my deuce and replacing hub assemblies is on my list just because they are a known wear item and seem to go at bad times---like driving down the road. Having a tire fall off while vehicle in motion can never be good.
Replacing them is cheap insurance for a 106K truck, I wouldn't even think twice about.

Plus they seem pretty easy to do yourself.

Any brands I should avoid or run to?
I saw these: http://dmaxstore.com/products/?route=product/product&product_id=173&search=timken
Not sure if the warranty is worth the price. I'm really not well read on hub assemblies.

 

[Big2dabank]

You can find the Timken Hubs cheaper at other sources, the last set I did were just over $150 each after shipping and the repair is very easy. I am not sure what DMAX does different with the Kryptonite series Timken hubs, but Rock auto currently has the Timken Hub for $131, which is about what I paid and I have had great success with them.

 

[Synthetickiller]

So far, I'm basically set on the following:

Kryptonite UCA (can't find a reason in the long run to go w/ Moog)
Moog XD Pitman
DMax XD Tie Rods
Timken Hubs

Left with questions about two things.
1. Kryptonite LCAs (Do they fit?)
2. Kryptonite Idler Arm.

For my needs, the price & work to cut the frame, is the Kryptonite worth the $600 vs the Moog which would set me back under $200?
After I get those two things settled, I'm set.

Big2dabank, what's the model number or any number associated w/ the wheel/hub assembly? I did a part search under Timken & nothing comes up around $131 or for 2500/Hummers. The easiest things are sometimes too difficult, lol.

 

[Zach]

Upper and lower control arms are the same from 03-09 same as tie rods

 

[Synthetickiller]

Upper and lower control arms are the same from 03-09 same as tie rods

Oh I know the hardware on the Hummers didn't change. I just have had a lot of people, including the Dmax store, say they don't know & can't confirm. It's a $900 custom build, so that's a lot to sink into it if there's slight differences in the geometry.

I haven't found anything related to the lowers, even on the duramaxes, other than the Kyrptonites. I might have to call GM directly & see if anyone knows if the LCA is interchangeable.

Tie rods are a non-issue. All versions will fit fine.

 

[Big2dabank]

I can't imagine there is any reason why it would be different. As far as the lowers are concerned I had no luck with new/aftermarket arms, so I just pressed in new ball joints to by me some time. It was pretty easy.

 

[mmesa005]

Just went through the same thing with my recent purchase of an 03 H2. Tire, complete front end rebuild, wheel bearings. Serviced all the axles, transmission, engine as well. I did all Moog and used my local O Reilly's just so I could confirm parts were correct and didn't have to deal with shipping.

Good luck!

 

[Synthetickiller]

So far for steering, I'm now sitting with:
1. Extreme Duty Idler Arm ($135) or Kryptonite Death Idler Arm ($300)
2. Extreme Duty Pitman Arm ($125)
3. EXTREME DUTY IDLER ARM BRACKETS ($194)
4. DMAX XD TIE RODS+COGNITO PISK KIT PACKAGE ($484)

That puts me at $938 or $1103 depending on the Idler arm I choose.
I'm waiting to see how much cutting has to be done to accommodate the Death Idler Arm & I'm not totally sure I need it with only 35s/37s. Devenomized over on CHO is doing a very similar build, so I'm waiting on that before I commit. I have confirmation that the Idler Arm Brackets & Cognito Pisk work, so I think I'll be set for the steering once I get more info on the idler arm.

I have just a hair more leg work to do on the LCAs before pulling the trigger. If they fit, I'll just install Kryptonite all around for when I install a diesel & just ease of serviceability & longevity.

Otherwise, I only have CV joints, Hub assemblies & the like to take care of, plus a little more service work.
I'm also thinking about new T-bar keys, but I have to get a little more info on a t-bar lifts. Opinions are heavily divided lol.

 

[twinmill28]

Factory "green" keys are your best bet for the T-bars and they're cheap at GMPartshouse.com
With the upgrade you're doing keys are a great idea

T bar cranking and replacing keys is much more argued on the H3 side; with deuces there's little argument about replacing the keys with green keys and getting a lift.

 

[Scarsman]

You don't need to cut anything to run the Kryptonite idler. I'm running it on mine. You only need to cut if you want to run the Kryptonite idler pivot. And you don't need to cut the frame, just the top off the pivot mount.

 

[Scarsman]

Factory "green" keys are your best bet for the T-bars and they're cheap at GMPartshouse.com
With the upgrade you're doing keys are a great idea

T bar cranking and replacing keys is much more argued on the H3 side; with deuces there's little argument about replacing the keys with green keys and getting a lift.

The only thing I would argue is that you don't need the green keys unless you have bottomed out your stock keys and still don't have the height you are wanting. Many have the misconception that green keys somehow give you more lift without affecting ride, but this is not true. No matter what keys you use, all you are doing is turning the torsion bars. It's the angle of your control arms that affects the ride. The higher you crank, the steeper the angle becomes, which changes the arc of travel at ride height, and reduces the effective leverage of the control arm on the torsion bar. This is what makes for a stiff ride with bars that are cranked way up. Not the keys.

 

[Synthetickiller]

Factory "green" keys are your best bet for the T-bars and they're cheap at GMPartshouse.com
With the upgrade you're doing keys are a great idea

T bar cranking and replacing keys is much more argued on the H3 side; with deuces there's little argument about replacing the keys with green keys and getting a lift.

If I was trying to run 38s, maybe. The biggest tire I'll ever go is 37, since it's not lifted. I have 35s now with a ton of clearance. I shouldn't have to even bother cranking keys to get a 37 to fit.

My issue, as I've said so many times, is that the vehicle's suspension/steering was just beat to hell. I really don't know what's good & what's not. I know torsion bars can sag, but I have no clue if these are worn out yet. The keys are cranked very differently (the passenger's side is cranked a lot more than the diver's side), so I'm wondering if that was to compensate. I'll make a thread about that specifically & not here. That's why the issue of replacing keys came up. I talked to Lojac today about the keys & he said his look the same, all rusted, since it's bare iron. Shame on GM, lol. I've noticed that parts of the torsion bars near the keys are also starting to rust. It just doesn't sit well with me. It seems like everything is going on the truck lol.

You don't need to cut anything to run the Kryptonite idler. I'm running it on mine. You only need to cut if you want to run the Kryptonite idler pivot. And you don't need to cut the frame, just the top off the pivot mount.

Good to know. I haven't see a picture of it installed & I read that you have to cut the frame over on CHO (could easily be a misunderstanding of mine). I was also told by the Dmax Store that the Death Grip Idler requires frame cutting to install on the H2. This is why I'm confused.

I was also told over on CHO that the idler pivot fits, stock, no cutting. Not pointing fingers, just saying where I got the info from. :wink:
I've never had to cut anything on parts, besides cutting off bolts. Is this something someone like my with limited experience can do?
If you have a pic handy of what was cut, that would be awesome.

The only thing I would argue is that you don't need the green keys unless you have bottomed out your stock keys and still don't have the height you are wanting. Many have the misconception that green keys somehow give you more lift without affecting ride, but this is not true. No matter what keys you use, all you are doing is turning the torsion bars. It's the angle of your control arms that affects the ride. The higher you crank, the steeper the angle becomes, which changes the arc of travel at ride height, and reduces the effective leverage of the control arm on the torsion bar. This is what makes for a stiff ride with bars that are cranked way up. Not the keys.

Keys are keys are keys. This is why I'm not doing a key lift on my mother's H3 (she wants 35" tires, lol). All I can do is crank & crank as little as I have to. I figured that scenario would apply to H2 as well.

I'll probably just look into a torsion key kit like duck head or something. They all seem to be "leveling" key kits. Is the GM 1 ton key kit (don't know the name or part number) probably the best kit to go with? I won't be cranking keys at all.

 

[Scarsman]

Well, the bracket where the pivot mounts is welded to the frame, but it's not actually a part of the frame. I guess that is probably where they are getting the "cutting the frame" thing from. I'll try and get a couple pics of the mount if it's not pouring rain tomorrow before I go to work.

Are you just replacing your keys because they are rusted? If that's the case I would just take them off and get them blasted and powder coated. Should be able to get that done for less than half what a key kit costs.

The GM 1 ton keys are just indexed differently, allowing you to crank further than the stock keys. If you're not needing to go higher than your stock keys are able then you would get no benefit from them. And they would rust just like your stock ones after awhile.

 

[Synthetickiller]

Well, the bracket where the pivot mounts is welded to the frame, but it's not actually a part of the frame. I guess that is probably where they are getting the "cutting the frame" thing from. I'll try and get a couple pics of the mount if it's not pouring rain tomorrow before I go to work.

Are you just replacing your keys because they are rusted? If that's the case I would just take them off and get them blasted and powder coated. Should be able to get that done for less than half what a key kit costs.

The GM 1 ton keys are just indexed differently, allowing you to crank further than the stock keys. If you're not needing to go higher than your stock keys are able then you would get no benefit from them. And they would rust just like your stock ones after awhile.

I'll just hold off on the keys then. I can probably just wire wheel them myself & just do 4 or 5 coats from a rattle can. I think that would hold up ok.

Don't worry about the pics.
I just noticed that rare parts provides a PDF of the cuts required to fit the arm: http://rareparts.com/pdf/instructions/21037instructions.pdf
The only thing I can't do is weld the gusset, but I can find a welder to do it for me after the fact. I doubt driving on the road would cause enough stress to break the mount (but if I'm wrong, say so!).

 

[Scarsman]

Yep, that's exactly the cutting I meant. However, the gusset they sell will not work on the H2. I have one I ordered with my idler and pivot, but this part of our frame is different from the HD trucks and it will not fit. I will be making a gusset for my truck this fall/winter so that I can mount the Kryptonite pivot. Once I do I can make more if needed. [emoji6]

When I learned this I decided not to cut my bracket and mount my pivot until I have time to make the gusset. I'm sure temporary street driving would be OK for awhile, but I would not want to for long. Once you cut the top off the bracket it has no triangulation. Turning 35"-37" tires on pavement without rolling requires a lot of force and does put a lot of stress on the steering components and frame.

 

[twinmill28]

The GM 1 ton keys are just indexed differently, allowing you to crank further than the stock keys. If you're not needing to go higher than your stock keys are able then you would get no benefit from them. And they would rust just like your stock ones after awhile.

This....is what I was trying to say--the mods you're going to make (upgraded UCA's) will work nicely with the green keys. Doesn't matter if all you're running is 37's, you're still wanting to crank the t-bars.

Again, H3's are a whole 'nother animal in regards to cranking and replace vs. leave factory keys alone. While it's the same set-up as a deuce, the results and ride are different.

 

[Zach]

I'll chime in. I'm running cognito upper uca's with the pisk kit. OE idler and pitman and running 37's for about 5 years now and green keys for about 2 years. And rare parts tie rods, kryptonites weren't around then. I've never had an issue with my set up. And I've wheeled the **** out of my truck! Green keys gave me a little more lift in front for winch and bumper. As far as ride quality, same as before. Just my .02

 

[Synthetickiller]

Yep, that's exactly the cutting I meant. However, the gusset they sell will not work on the H2. I have one I ordered with my idler and pivot, but this part of our frame is different from the HD trucks and it will not fit. I will be making a gusset for my truck this fall/winter so that I can mount the Kryptonite pivot. Once I do I can make more if needed. [emoji6]


When I learned this I decided not to cut my bracket and mount my pivot until I have time to make the gusset. I'm sure temporary street driving would be OK for awhile, but I would not want to for long. Once you cut the top off the bracket it has no triangulation. Turning 35"-37" tires on pavement without rolling requires a lot of force and does put a lot of stress on the steering components and frame.

Right!
I was looking at the pics & was scratching my head. I can install the death grip & pivot when there's a good option for a gusset. No pressure.

This....is what I was trying to say--the mods you're going to make (upgraded UCA's) will work nicely with the green keys. Doesn't matter if all you're running is 37's, you're still wanting to crank the t-bars.

Again, H3's are a whole 'nother animal in regards to cranking and replace vs. leave factory keys alone. While it's the same set-up as a deuce, the results and ride are different.

I didn't know that.
A lot of this is new to me, so I'm trying to keep up. It seems that as you crank the H3 keys, the ride suffers, almost linearly.
The H2 sounds like you can crank them a good it for clreance & there's not a noticeable ride difference, except nearing the max?

GMpartsdirect has the keys for $25.29 each. Buying the removal tool is double the cost of the pair! I'd rather be safe than sorry though.

I'll chime in. I'm running cognito upper uca's with the pisk kit. OE idler and pitman and running 37's for about 5 years now and green keys for about 2 years. And rare parts tie rods, kryptonites weren't around then. I've never had an issue with my set up. And I've wheeled the **** out of my truck! Green keys gave me a little more lift in front for winch and bumper. As far as ride quality, same as before. Just my .02

Thanks for that info, especially the ride quality. I'll be doing that. The price isn't bad & I can get a look at the torsion bars while I'm at it.
The H2 will eventually get a Duramax. While it's not like adding 1000 lb to the front end, I'd just feel better at the end of day w/ the kryptonite idler. I just like some overkill since things tend to last longer that way. I'll be able to test everything out anyways since I'll deal w/ the gusset situation later on.

I have no doubt the OEM idler & pitman are fine though for almost any application. Although the truck is only about 6 years old, whoever owned it pushed it & replaced absolutely nothing. Dollars to cents, I bet both are worn out. Everything else has been, thus far. I replaced my entire back end (all control arms & rear axle tie rod by Spohn, Helwig anti-sway bar + profoged end links, adjustable king shocks) & now the front shakes like you wouldn't believe & reverberates throughout the entire suv, including the steering wheel, pedals (barely), seats, etc. That's why I'm guessing everything is bad, really bad!

The new rare parts tie rods are heavier duty than the kryptonites, btw. 1.5" vs 1.125" respectively.

 

[Reaper550]

2 cents:

Timken rocks (he he he) for wheel bearing assemblies, Autozone carries them for around $130. High quality units.

With aftermarket UCAs, from what I've heard from a few shops in Tx is its hard to get alignment on some of them. So when they are installed, be sure to get your measurement print outs to see any potentially weak alignment settings which can burn through tires.

I run military 37" tires, still has the factory rake to the rig, they only rub on the passenger side under full lock turn to the right (steering wheel). I do run spacers (HMMWV wheels have zero backspacing so I run 2.5" billet units) so you might want to look into potential for contact with the sway bar.

 

[Synthetickiller]

2 cents:

Timken rocks (he he he) for wheel bearing assemblies, Autozone carries them for around $130. High quality units.

With aftermarket UCAs, from what I've heard from a few shops in Tx is its hard to get alignment on some of them. So when they are installed, be sure to get your measurement print outs to see any potentially weak alignment settings which can burn through tires.

I run military 37" tires, still has the factory rake to the rig, they only rub on the passenger side under full lock turn to the right (steering wheel). I do run spacers (HMMWV wheels have zero backspacing so I run 2.5" billet units) so you might want to look into potential for contact with the sway bar.

Yep, the Timkens on are the list.
Reguarding the UCAs, GOOD IDEA! I wonder if the Kyrptonite UCAs are more difficult than most. I really didn't think it mattered, hmm...

I have the Helwig anti-sway bar up front as well. From what I've read, oversized & stiffer bars can cause tires to rub at full lock. I have 35s now, so I doubt there's any kind of issue. If I have any rub, I don't feel or notice it. I'll get under the rig when I lift it to see how close the wheel is at full lock. I might have the issue with 37s, but I doubt I'll ever see it with 35s.

 

[Reaper550]

If you park with your wheels turned almost full right, you can see if you rub the bar. Some do from the factory, some don't. Mine did only on the passenger side, slightly, with the military 37's i rub a tiny bit on full lock on the inner fender. I've replaced everything except for the pitman/idler, UCA & LCA. I debated aftermarket vs GM, and its hit and miss. I'm guessing it largely depends on the install, and the attention paid during the process & alignment. I'm following this thread with great interest.