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H3 Awd vs 4wd lock..... Help

06 H3

a.k.a. "The Jackal"
Messages
9,496
Location
Meridian, ID
I have a 06 non adventure and i can tell a difference between all three options and think it performs great!! I would love just to jump behind the wheel of an adventure with a 4:1 t-case with a rear locker and see if all the talk is real!!!! Always reading about them drives me crazy!!! Any offers?!?!?!

The talk is real! lol I am trying to think of people who started open open with base t case gearing and now have a 4:1 and rear locker, so far all I know of is me and alrock. I know he said he can feel a difference and I can feel a night and day difference. things you would just spin up you flip the switch and it makes life a lot easier.

With the 4:1 I used to have to hold the brake, rev up the motor a little and take a running start on obstacles, now you crawl up no problem, also going downhill I used to have to touch the brake and now I let the gearing do the work for me. I would say for me personally the rear locker is a bigger difference and the 4:1 is the icing on the cake. I will have a front locker in by next week. Cant wait to feel that difference.

Wait, now I am confused. When I had pass. side half shaft explode in CV joint.

In Unlocked truck is not moving at all, but you can see broken shaft turning.
in Hi locked truck will move fine.

No front locker.

In un locked it was probably sending all the power to the least amount of resistance which was the front and in an open diff it will continue to send it to the least amount of resistance which was the broken shaft. When it was in 4 hi locked then the t case is was sending half the power to the rear and half to the front. So the rear was doing all the work while the front power was being transmitted to the broken shaft.
 

digglesworth

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,789
Location
illinois
I have a 06 non adventure and i can tell a difference between all three options and think it performs great!! I would love just to jump behind the wheel of an adventure with a 4:1 t-case with a rear locker and see if all the talk is real!!!! Always reading about them drives me crazy!!! Any offers?!?!?!

Just throw down some $$$ and find a 4:1 and a rear locker... ;)
That's what I wanna do but there's some things that are higher up on the wish list... If I was ready to do the swap. I wouldn't worry about going through all the work of replacing the plastic shift fork in my 2.6:1 but its gotta get me through for a while longer. I'm just glad to hear an open diff non-adv is still pretty darn capable.
 

06 H3

a.k.a. "The Jackal"
Messages
9,496
Location
Meridian, ID
I'm just glad to hear an open diff non-adv is still pretty darn capable.

They certainly are...Alex and I took our H3s in some pretty good places without lockers or 4:1 gearing, its just it makes life easier. I think I was most amazed by this video of Alex.

[video=youtube;vKTTNTQMJWs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKTTNTQMJWs[/video]

Let traction control do its thing!

I also made a video of a 2wd truck attempting something open and locked.

[video=youtube;XZt8ezjud_k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZt8ezjud_k[/video]
 

bebe

Moderator
Messages
1,375
Location
Dayton, NV
because the evl one asked :thumbs:

http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1105_4wd_vs_awd/viewall.html

Life used to be so simple. Pickups looked like pickups. SUVs looked like SUVs. Everything else was a car. And when it came to 4WD and AWD, one was serious, and the other was a gimmick. All that has changed. Today, there are so many fractured segments, subsegments, different styles, and looks that some people might consider a certain vehicle a car, while others call it a four-wheel drive, and still others think it's a crossover. And in one way or another, they could all be right. Here, we take a look at the basic assets and strengths of 4WD and AWD systems, discuss the major players in each category, and suggest what to keep in mind when using these systems to the best of their capabilities. In fact, the possibility exists that in the future our current naming choices won't be adequate to distinguish the different types of powertrain systems. Maybe simply calling something 4WD or AWD (or even 4x4) isn't good enough. Jeep's Grand Cherokee uses a full-time 4WD system with a dedicated transfer case that offers several terrain settings. Selec-Terrain has a setup similar to Ford (with Snow, Sand & Mud, Rock, and Normal) with an added Sport setting. This allows the Grand Cherokee to be a better, more spirited street driver and back-country explorer.

4WD
The 4WD vehicles were simpler. The output shaft from the transmission went into a transfer case where the engine power was split between front and rear driveshafts. In 2WD, the rear driveshaft turned a pinion inside the rear differential, spinning a ring gear that turned the right and left axle shafts, eventually turning each wheel. With the transfer case lever engaged in 4High or 4Low, a fork would engage a chain drive, turning the front driveshaft and pinion (at the same speed as the rear driveshaft) in the front axle's differential, also turning the ring gear and right and left front axle shafts, then the wheels. This is also referred to as a "part-time" 4WD system because the 4WD had to be manually engaged, and without a center differential it could be used only on low-grip terrain or driving surfaces. Four-wheel-drive systems are more complicated now, but the principles are the same. As you might expect, there are more computers and advanced electrical sensors in most of today's 4WD systems, but there are still a few brand-new vehicles that aren't that different from the originals (such as the Jeep Wrangler and Ram HD Power Wagon). Still, as we define it, a basic 4WD system will have some kind of dedicated transfer case with a separate low-range gear that allows the driver to multiply the transmission and ring-and-pinion gearing to provide for more (and slower) control of the vehicle. The slower speeds this crawl ratio (first gear x axle gear x low range) allows for more useable tractive force (or torque) to each tire, whether on rocks, snow, gravel, or a steep incline. The low-range gearing effectively acts as a torque multiplier, giving the vehicle more grunt at the wheels to climb over nastier terrain or obstacles. Of course, it doesn't hurt that many vehicles equipped with a dedicated transfer case also have a good amount of ground clearance and larger wheels and tires. Many who enjoy this type of driving for recreation often remove some air pressure from their tires at the trailhead to give them a larger contact patch and more sidewall flex on the terrain they want to navigate over. The new 4Runner offers two different four-wheel-drive systems, with this being full-time 4WD model. The dial is set to all-wheel-drive mode, designated at "H4F" for high range power to all wheels, all the time. Other settings include high range with engine power equally split to front and rear axles (center differential locked), and low range with engine power equally split to front and rear axle.


AWD
According to the Society of Automotive Engineers, an all-wheel-drive vehicle is one with an on-demand feature that occasionally or intermittently sends power to the non-primary powered wheels. The most basic systems often begin with a front-drive platform with some kind of power-splitting differential housed inside the transmission in or in a separate box. AWD is able to send rotational power through a prop shaft to a rear differential where power is directed to each of the rear wheels. In some cases, a certain percentage of engine power is sent to the rear wheels, until the computer sensor detects front wheelslip and redirects more power. Many crossovers or small SUVs were originally developed from passenger car platforms, so the AWD systems were adapted to work for the platform, rather than being designed specifically for that vehicle. Although this type of system doesn't offer an extra low-range gear, it does provide a good amount of traction in snow, rain, or icy conditions when the computer system can detect small and large amounts of wheelslip between front and rear wheels. Just as 4WD systems have benefitted from the advancement of added computer power, so have AWD systems, especially in the last decade. A typical AWD or 4WD drivetrain in a pickup truck or large SUV has the engine sending power through the transmission and into the transfer case, where the torque is split between the front and rear driveshafts, with transfer to the front usually handled by a chain.


There's more at the above link, it even has pictures :)
 

hodges81

Well-Known Member
Messages
60
Location
BECKLEY, WV
It's a possibility... Also, whats up with the traction control?
I've always had better traction with traction control on instead of being off...
It just wants to spin and it sounds like a bunch of bees in a coffee can rolling around in my floor board.

:giggle:
 

hodges81

Well-Known Member
Messages
60
Location
BECKLEY, WV
I apologize if I seem ignorant...

I've had several muscle cars and when I've got into situations like a sudden snow storm I disengaged traction control if it had it, stomped the gas and drifted home.

Also, I had a 97 JEEP CHEROKEE and had no traction control features and it would go as better than my H3 in some situations. Just stomp the gas and spin out of almost anything.

So all I'm asking is why when you disengage the traction control for the H3... Why does it just sit there and buzzz and not just go???.....
 

LagunaH1

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,730
Location
Idaho
I didn't understand your question, thanks for elaborating.

AFAIK there is no way of completely disengaging TC on an H3. H3's tend to do better if you keep a steady throttle and steady RPM and let TC take care of things. TC will apply braking to the wheel(s) that spin and thus send torque to the wheels with more grip. This process can be pretty loud as the TC system pulses the brakes. It's pretty much the opposite of what happens when ABS prevents a wheel from locking up.
 

alrock

El Diablo
Staff member
Messages
10,660
Location
Scottsdale
To open a GIANT can of worm here - first, you have to figure out if the switch you are pressing is for stability control or traction control. Two different things and the owner's manual isn't likely to be a help as they use the terms interchangeably, at least in some versions of the manual. Traction control helps you move forward. Stability control helps keep you aimed on your desired path. My opinion has always been that the button on the dash manages stability control alone but there are other opinions, and I may not be correct.

Second, my understanding is that traction control is automatically disabled after either of these two events: 1) press the brake 2) reach X mph, and I'm not sure where X is, but it's a pretty low number.

If you mash the gas and get the wheels quickly spinning, you'll be outside of the range of traction control. However, if you are lightly pressing the gas, letting the tires spin slowly, the computer will figure out what needs to be done and do its best to get you moving by restraining power to the freely spinning wheels and getting power to the wheels with traction.

So, if you just stomp the gas and go, you move quickly past traction control and all you're really invoking is the tires and their ability to get traction. The rest of the truck doesn't have that much to do with it (except of course weight, 2 wheels being driven vs. 4, limited slip mechanical systems etc.)
 

LagunaH1

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,730
Location
Idaho
4656346-concept-for-the-idiom-of-a-open-can-of-worms.jpg
 

digglesworth

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,789
Location
illinois
I know this has probably been argued to the bitter end but if you try BTMing in an H3, are you inadvertently disabling the traction control and creating sort of your own version of a less specified traction control by confusing the computer? Traction control isolates certain wheels to brake or apply power where BTMing applies brakes across the board... Is that why some claim you can't BTM effectively in the H3?
 

alrock

El Diablo
Staff member
Messages
10,660
Location
Scottsdale
I would not say that you are inadvertently overriding the TC, you are intentionally overriding it and managing it yourself. For example, TC takes a few seconds to kick in and often you cannot afford that wheelspin. By applying the brakes, you create your own TC right away.

BTMing does brake all four wheels but when done correctly it only enough brake is applied to prevent all of the power going to one wheel. You are not locking up all four wheels. I have tried the same obstacle (Hell's Gate) with TC and BTM (with rear locker engaged) and with TC I failed and fell off the line. When applying the brake all of the way up I was able to control wheelspin and climb right up. Please note that with a rear locker you're only really having to control 2 wheels, not four, as the locker controls the rear two. I was not as successful trying to use BTM when I did not have a rear locker.
 

alrock

El Diablo
Staff member
Messages
10,660
Location
Scottsdale
BTW, if you want to see TC in action, check out this video at the :20 mark and watch the driver front wheel.

Better yet, watch around 2:40 for about a minute. First, you'll see the wheels spin, stop, scrub their way for traction. That's the TC at work. Note that minor wheelspin must occur. Also, you can see the driver's front wheel up in the air again, held at a stop by the TC
[video=youtube_share;6hj_IEl7RbM]http://youtu.be/6hj_IEl7RbM[/video]
 
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digglesworth

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,789
Location
illinois
That makes perfect sense... I'm new to all this stuff and I'm not quite hip to all the terminology yet... But I think I'm getting a handle on it. The moral of that was traction control is done by the computer where as BTMing is done manually... Oh. And I need a rear locker but I already knew that. Lol
 

Steve #1

Well-Known Member
Messages
534
Location
TEXAS
It is a can of worms but, what alrock said is spot on. What I have noticed is that drivers often don't give the TC a chance to do it's job. They give it to much throttle so the TC doesn't kick in or if it does, they panic and get off the throttle or touch the brake which puts them back where they started. You must gently apply throttle and let the wheel spin and once the TC kicks in keep the throttle constant. The "buzzing" is either the stability control or ABS rapidly applying and releasing the brakes. This indicates that the wheels are spinning to fast for TC to work and the driver is applying the brakes or the stability control is turned on.

Here's another video up close showing the traction control working (watch to the very end). It also shows that you don't NEED a rear locker. :wink: Don't get me wrong, lockers are nice and if there had been a single adventure package with a manual trans on a lot when I bought my H3 I would have one, but don't underestimate the base H3.

[video=youtube;3tVvs_GD_Yc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tVvs_GD_Yc&feature=share&list=UUgt97Ux8z1 KUZWwfw9BdZGA[/video]
 

hodges81

Well-Known Member
Messages
60
Location
BECKLEY, WV
Ok..... so I did as y'all said and put it in 4wd lock on asphalt and while going about 5mph I turned it sharp and there was no jumpin or anything. Just as smooth as if it was in 4wd hi unlocked...
:sigh:
 
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hodges81

Well-Known Member
Messages
60
Location
BECKLEY, WV
So I'm thinking its a plastic fork inside the transfer case but I've never had it disassembled. I have always changed my oil on everything on my H3 before recommended and I use synthetic but I guess it doesn't stop some things from breaking. Advice is greatly appreciated.
 
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