Full time locker

[06 H3]

Question for you guys. Will an auto locker like a Detroit be bad for our t cases being full time? Im not concerned about it messing with our abs since I have driven with the rear end locked (spool when locked) back to camp from hammers 4-5 miles on pavement at 55-60. (Long 5am repair and forgot I had it on) with no issues to abs. Reasoning I'm asking is I'm contemplating upgrading my rear axle to a totally oddball but super badass axle. The 4x4 world knows little about it keeping the price very cheap aka free in my instance. Factory Auto locker and 5.14 gears. I would adapt abs to it. This axle is not a boat anchor like the 14 bolt, weighs half the weight of a 14 bolt and has been known to handle stupid amounts of abuse for example on numerous reviews I have seen comments like, I have been beating on this 200 dollar axle for 9 years with 600 horsepower and 44in tires and never had an issue. Bolt it in and forget about it....
I'm going to pick it up no matter what since the price is right, FREE and if it doesn't work I can sell it.

2 concerns are
auto locker, if this is an issue for our t cases? people have made modifications to an arb to get them to fit in this case if an auto is an issue.

And 5.14 gears. I am running 5.13s but according to pirate, guys have run different gear ratios front to back quite often with no issues. They say the max percent difference should be 2% and the difference between 5.13 and 5.14 is less then a 1/4 percent. I have seen people run 5.29 and 5.38 with no issue and ford had a factory option of 4.10 front 4.11 rear.

What do u think?

I'm after this axle is for numerous reasons. Im tired of breaking, people have seen me wheel (feel free to agree or disagree) I don't feel like a hammer down type of guy, I try to methodically crawl through a trail and give it a generous bump when needed but nothing crazy. Every time I go out I am tackling more and more difficult trails and my broken axle list is piling up and I want to put a stop to it or atleast slow it down lol

4 ifs axles (3 broken before I did the SAS)
3 Dana 44 gearsets (2 broken but belief to a defective housing)
2 Dana 44 housings (solve defective housing)
1 rear axle
2 rear eaton e lockers
1 broken rear driveshaft
1 inner Dana 44 shaft (bent ears not fully broken)
1 outer 44 shaft (sheared in 2 pieces)
2 Dana 44 u joints

While I haven't broken a 10 bolt rear Ring and pinion I wanna upgrade. Reason also for moving to this is that the 14 bolt is a heavy boat anchor. If running 40s you can make up for the difference but on 37s I'm losing ground clearance. This axle is 14 bolt strength but not nearly as heavy or boat anchor-like.

Or do I just say **** it, buy 2 chromoly axle shafts for the 10 bolt and wait to see if anything breaks? Keep in mind changing out a c clip axle will make u hate the designer of a c clip axle for the rest of your life as the design is horrible and no c clip eliminator kits are available for a late model 10 bolt.

 

[06 H3]

And lastly, while it sounds like I'm hating on the 10 bolt I must say I give it a ton of credit. Never had an issue with the R&P, locker failures were eatons fault not the 10 bolt and I ran stock shafts wheeling for 7 years progressively hitting harder trails and bigger tires and broke in a very respectable location under a ton of load. I wish there was a c clip elim kit because it would make changing out shafts way less miserable and much more desirable to keep the 10 Bolt

 

[Scarsman]

I can't see it causing a problem with your transfer case. I think the biggest thing would just be getting used to the unique driving traits of the particular locker it has. Some auto lockers are better than others at allowing normal driving on hard surfaces.

You should also be fine with the gearing. You will never notice any effect from a .01 difference.

Sounds like another fun project! And it would make your truck that much more unique!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[rsc]

I'm not an expert, didn't even sleep in a Holiday Inn last night. From what I gather, the fr/rear gearing is not an issue. Not even locked on pavement. If the ABS and Stability actually are not affected by running a spool or locked diff when not in low as expected, then I would say go for it. I don't think the transfer case will care what you do unless the locker you pick has harsh engagement and starts inputting shock loads to the transfer case chain.

 

[06 H3]

Thanks, yea I doubt it would cause issues but wanted some feedback. For the axle I am looking at its the Eaton HO72. It was used before the 14 bolt. It has a load bolt as well as 3rd pinion bearing support. With the 3rd pinion bearing support it prevents the pinion deflecting and walking away from the ring gear. The load bolt rides behind the ring gear and as the ring gear deflects under load pushing itself away from the pinion it will hit the load bolt and prevent it walking away. Kinda cool the engineers came up with this stuff back in 1950-1960s...it has a removable 3rd member as well. Lastly from what I have read ford bought out the rights to the HO72 and designed the ford 9in off of the HO72 which is a good axle as well. The axle stopped production in the early 70s.

while these are all very good pros. There are a few cons. Lack of aftermarket support. That's a good and bad thing. The good is that it keeps these axles cheap! Free-300 bucks. Bad is there is one locker choice which is a Detroit or known as a "no spin" option from the factory. You can swap out the bizarre 17 spline shafts to 14 bolt side gears and stock 14 bolt shafts slide right in. Drum brake Parts are rare and expensive but most do a disc brake kit using 14 bolt kits. Bearings are readily available but using expensive. One carrier bearing is 38 bucks compared to the typical 20ish dollars.

Lastly, I am at a point where any hardcore trail I run its the same setup with a different body. Setup 1 is V8 Dana 60 14 bolt
Setup 2 lightweight toyota with a 4cyl dual cases toy 8in axles.

I want something different. The builds are so cookie cutter and I think there's something to be said for that. An Eaton HO72 out back would really say what the hell is that? Along with the comments I already get being on trails H3s are never seen on. Then maybe step up to a Carl jantz engineering kit that retrofits Dana 50 gears into my high pinion 44 front with some RCVs that will offer maximum strength with max ground clearance.

That's where my heads at...and if the Detroit sucks there are guys who take 14 bolt ARBs and machine them/modify them to fit into an Eaton HO72 3rd member.

ABS is ABS it's an issue no matter what axle I run and I have some ideas to adapt that over.

I would of picked up the axle today but he's out of town so hopefully next weekend I can get it.

 

[06 H3]

That's a good point RSC, with my ox lockers they act as a spool when locked which reduces shock load. A Detroit ratchets and may offer some more shock. Something I will research

 

[3Hummers]

Different set up but I had a Detroit on my 98. It would chirp and stutter on tight turns on the street and wore down the splines on my rear half shafts. I hated it and yanked it and went back to the Torsen diff. Solid axle set up probably has more manners. No ABS on the 98 either.

 

[4speedfunk]

Just modify your 10-bolt. You can make your own c-clip eliminator kit. You'll have to cut the ends of the tubes off and weld-on some Ford ends. Then install ford bearings and retainer plates on the shafts. Then just leave the c-clips out when you put it back together.
This is a very common mod with drag cars and I know several guys that have done it.

 

[4speedfunk]

Also FWIW...the trails you're running are pushing the limits of the 10-bolt rear (and the D44 front). You are discovering what the Jeep guys found out decades ago. I know it's boring but the D60/14b is a proven setup.

 

[06 H3]

Yea it's proven that is for sure and that's why basically every rig you see is the same setup with a different body on it.

CJ do you have a specific link to doing a DIY C clip elim?

Dave, doesn't your newly acquired scorpion have a Detroit out back?

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

GM put different ratios in their light-duty 3/4 ton trucks (box style)... 4.09 front, 4.10 rear. If you run the same tire pressure front and rear, you'll have different ratios because of the weight on the front tires reducing the diameter... I've never hear 2% but I know a slight difference hasn't made any difference, even with a direct drive (in 4 lock rather than 4 hi).

There is an automatic locker in the Colorado trucks... and since no one seems to want my colorado transfer case; I can only presume that it's not an issue.

my only issue with detroit lockers is their willingness to lock up on deceleration. One of my more hair-raising experiences was in a 1974 Blazer on 44s where I was blowing along and came upon stopped traffic. I let off and started to brake but before I'd even touched the pedal I was going backwards. I stopped with my rear bumper 2" off the back of a lady in her Honda.... best part is you have to back up to get it to unlock. As for chirping in corners, it'd only do that (and lock) if I applied substantial throttle... Detroits will kill you if you don't drive them right - but with that said, they simply don't break so (outside of a spool) they are pretty impressive.... but in a short-wheelbase, do take care when driving.

but - you got a good answer from Pirate? I can't imagine that being true.... :gaah:

 

[3Hummers]

Yes but not much seat time in it and not on pavement so no idea how much it differs from the 98. I suspect that what I did not like about it in 98 will not manifest itself in a solid axle set up.

 

[4speedfunk]

I don't have a specific link but I helped a buddy do a CCE years ago. The axle was a 10-bolt in a 74 TransAm (455-SD/AT). His was a kit made specifically for that axle. He ran Strange shafts and a 3.90 gear with a spool. He launched at 4000 rpm with a trans brake. He sprayed it with a 200 shot of NOS off the line. The car ran 10.80s with 10" DOT slicks and mufflers. Around 3800 pounds I think.
You will need a machine shop and I'm sure you'll have to get custom. But hey....you're a fabricator, right?

 

[06 H3]

Lol yea pirate can offer some sarcastic remarks.

How about snow in a Detroit or offroad side hilling in mud? Maybe Dwaine has some experience in that. I thought he runs a Detroit out back of the scorpion.

Yea, I mean I can try and "makeshift" a CCE kit. I just don't know where to start. All the places I called there reasons for no kit on late model 10 bolts were due to brake issues. Not sure what it entailed, the guy was short with me, kinda grumpy too lol

 

[Woodtick]

Locked up in the rear sucks bad in snow. The ass end goes sideways when you don't want it to. I never hit the locker when in snow or ice. It's Evan worse in reverse.

 

[3Hummers]

I think Scorpion locker options include ARB and Detroit.

 

[06 H3]

Yea, IIRC Dwaine runs an ARB up front and detroit out back.

I just want to make sure that a detroit wont suck. My buddy has one in his TJ. Im not too worried about it daily driving in dry conditions rather then the snowy conditions on and off road. I can vividly remember sidehilling in the snow on holcomb creek last january and sliding down would cause major issues. I dont remember if I was locked myself or not in that situation. I would imagine if there were issues there is a way to overcome them with driver input because a lot of hardcore off roaders use them and they make them work in all conditions.

CJ, I have been researching some stuff on C clip elim kits. If it was a bolt on deal I'd do it and be done but if I was to go through all the trouble of making a c clip elim I might as well go full float. Guys do sell spindles, it does require some amount of work but I believe that would be easier and much more worth while in the long run compared to a c clip elim. Brakes would need to be redone but so would a c clip elim as it pushes the rotor further away from the oem caliper brackets.

 

[4speedfunk]

Yeah. 14-bolt sounding better all the time.
BTW...I saw your video of the D44 u-joint that went ballistic. Check out CTM u-joints...they're about twice as strong as the Spicers. Yukon also make some called "Super Joints". Be warned however...about $500/pair. Gotta pay if u want to play!

 

[06 H3]

What I do not understand is how the top of the cap broke but the u joint didn't. Really weird. My girlfriend was driving and wasn't even on the gas as you saw in the video, she was just rolling forward and ding a piece comes flying at me. I looked into Yukon super joints and they are not for highway use since they used bronze bushings compared to a needle bearings. That leaves me with alloy USA x joints which are claimed to be in between spicer and CTM/Yukon super joints in strength or RCVs but hey! I didn't blow a R&P LOL...

On the rear axle that's where I'm at. Full float a 10B which people have done before because custom doing a c clip elim is a PITA and as much work as a full float since there's no kit for a late model 10B. Or just start over with a full float housing and figure out the ABS

 

[3Hummers]

Chris by the time you are done some auto maker is going to hire you to test and engineer their vehicles for them.

 

[atvspeed4]

I would just do Chromoly shafts and ox locker for the stock 10 bolt. We have a shop that is looking into building a FF kit for late model 10 bolts and thinks he can incorporate the ABS sensors as well but it is going to be a while before they can get to it (building custom IFS diff for us now). Our H3 has been sitting at their shop for a month as they tinker with it...

 

[4speedfunk]

No idea what would cause a cap to shoot off like that. Do you have the cap?
I see lots of stock shafts with egg-shaped u-joint holes...perhaps a clue to the stresses involved.

 

[06 H3]

Lol vehicle abuse testing would be a good job for me. I always said by the time I'm done I will have the setup that will take the abuse of any tough trail around without fear of breaking. I'll lay out a build spec sheet and any H3 can just copy it and avoid the growing pains.

Main problem is every time I make it stronger, I try something a bit more impossible/or stupid to some, that causes my new "stronger" parts to the breaking point. Anyone have some semi truck axles?

The 10 bolt FF is intriguing. Keep me posted on that.

CJ I'll pull it apart later or tomorrow and see when I put in the new u joint. I may try the alloy x joint. My buddy has em and likes them.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

another option for your outboard u-joints is what I used on my FJ40 - Nitrogear makes a u-joint that eliminates the roller pins. Your cap, that's a classic one. It ran out of grease, got hot, cooked the bearings. Once the bearings cooked and overheated it adhered your cross shaft to the end cap.... nice that it didn't completely destroy your spud or your center shaft.

About the extreme guys making the detroits work - they run buggies or exo-skeleton rigs. The key to any system is to know where the limit is and never pass it. I learned that one after side-hilling into a very large stump. While the stump missed everything vital, it hung up the truck on the frame and jammed between the cab and the bed body mounts. The truck wasn't damaged in the slide (and it's actually a good thing it caught the stump because it was a long way to the bottom). We spent nearly 2 days getting the truck safely off the stump (only about 4 hours working, the rest of the time was consumed in beverages, cussing, and several "alcohol-induced" plans....

 

[06 H3]

Are nitros ujoint not for highway use?