Jeep JK 35 spline super 44 locker install

[06 H3]

Have some questions for the pros...

My brother has 59k miles on his JK and probably 10k on his 5.13 gears. Doesnt this wear pattern look bizarre?

Its a bad picture but look at the back end of the pinion on the left side. It seems to be wearing quickly...It was a pro who installed these so we assumed it was done right.



Next, he is ditching the 30 spline oem shafts and the 30 spline open carrier for an ox 35 spline carrier and 35 spline nitro chromoly axle shafts. In the package they had this bag...These shims go between the carrier and bearings? Not between the housing and the outside of the bearing/race?



Thanks in advance.

 

[06 H3]

What a ****IN day from hell...realized we had no shim kit. Dumb move!!! How did that slip by us. The shims that were used before hand wouldn't go back in.

Very frustrating...and the driveway has to be clean by tomorrow night for my parents Halloween party so I had to go redneck style and grind down the existing shims just enough to get backlash and bearing preload acceptable enough to drive to a shop that does locker installs.

Time killed us here but at least labor cost at a shop should be cut by a good amount. Seeing we did the new 35 spline shafts, removal of all the old crap, mated the ring gear to the new carrier, assembled the locker, installed bearings, etc. It's all done otherwise. Just need to pop it out, shim it and throw it back in.

 

[MaxPF]

Have some questions for the pros...

My brother has 59k miles on his JK and probably 10k on his 5.13 gears. Doesnt this wear pattern look bizarre?

Its a bad picture but look at the back end of the pinion on the left side. It seems to be wearing quickly...It was a pro who installed these so we assumed it was done right.

Is it just that one tooth? Looks like a planar crack formed under the carburization layer, causing it to spall and flake off.

Next, he is ditching the 30 spline oem shafts and the 30 spline open carrier for an ox 35 spline carrier and 35 spline nitro chromoly axle shafts. In the package they had this bag...These shims go between the carrier and bearings? Not between the housing and the outside of the bearing/race?



Thanks in advance.

It should be obvious from the diameter of the shims. I'm guessing the locker is designed for a regular 44 and the JK44 is a bit wider internally?

 

[06 H3]

What we did was press those on in between the Cartier and bearing then we needed an "sk47" shim kit but the guy told my brother he won't because the locker and open carrier are exactly the same size. Sure enough we need a shim kit

 

[4speedfunk]

That looks like a bunch of wear for 10K miles! I've always been a DIY guy...not only for budget reasons but, also because I don't trust much of the workmanship done by so called "pros". I am far from a pro...but I am totally accountable for my own work (and sometimes I have to learn from my own mistakes). My dad taught me that if you want it done right...do it yourself. The longer I'm around, the more this seems to be true! But it often means a lot of studying and self-education, and double the downtime because I want to be sure I'm doing things right. You're not alone, CP...hang-in there. Nothing ever goes as smooth as you first think. For instance...

(I would love your input on this MaxPF)...I just happen to be in the middle of a 12-bolt R&P install on my 69 Impala.
SOLID PINION SPACER:
After following 06H3's thread on his AAM-7, I decided to dump the crush sleeve and install a solid pinion bearing spacer. That went pretty smooth, except I had to choose between a .016" and a .020" shim. This resulted in me having to choose between "obviously way too tight" and "only 5 in/lbs." of preload. Since I am using used bearings and also a used pinion seal (less drag than a new one)....I'm going to run the pre-load as-is, at 5 in/lbs. I suppose a .018" shim would get it perfect but, there wasn't one included in the solid spacer kit...so I'm gonna punt on that one. This car only sees about 500 miles of driving each year, so there is not much wear on anything.
PINION BEARING SHIM:
I'm replacing a Richmond 4.10 gearset with an identical Richmond 4.10 gearset. When I compared the pinion depth number (engraved on the end of the pinion gears)...I found them to be within .002" of each other. So as a starting point, I just transferred my existing pinion shims to the new gear, along with the used pinion bearing. This seems to leave a nice pattern on my initial test fit. I use a thin coat of aerosol lithium grease to check the pattern...its easy to read and you can wipe it off, and re-apply as many times as necessary.
CARRIER SHIMS:
After I got the pinion in place, I did my first run (using the carrier shims that were already in the axle) and found the backlash to be around .020"...way too much. So, I ordered a shim kit from Summit. Delays delays delays. After correcting the backlash, I'll check the pattern again, and hopefully button it up.

BTW...this repair is a result of the ring gear bolts FALLING OUT! After 10-years of worry free, loc-tighted, service...the bolts just decided to come loose. Two were completely out...one in pieces (taking teeth with it)...and the other 10 ring-gear bolts were removed without a wrench. Crazy! I've never seen anything like this. Apparently this is not un-common with 12-bolts, so I ordered some cross-drilled, 12-point ring gear bolts (from Mark Williams), a new gearset, and clean & inspected everything else. Other than some obvious tooth damage...it all looked good. This time, I have lock-wired the ring-gear bolts in place. They will not be coming loose again.

 

[jakesz28]

I think 10 to 15 inch pounds is ideal using the used bearings. So your not to far away. You can't use a combination of thinner shims to get you closer? Or that's the best option with what you have?

 

[4speedfunk]

Yeah that's what I was thinkin...5 in/lbs. is probably close enough. Better to be too loose on the pre-load than too tight. I even bumped up the pinion nut torque from 125 ft/lbs to 130 ft/lbs, just to see if I could get more pre-load. FORGET THAT...a solid spacer is SOLID!, and once it bottoms you're done. I couldn't cheat it like I could with a crush sleeve.

This pinon spacer kit was $30.00 shipped (cough), and it came with a 2" long spacer tube that has been machined on the ends to a specific length...and 5 or 6 shims. The problem is that the shims are .010", .012", .016", and .020"...and nothing thinner. So I don't have much of a selection to choose from. I think I could shave the spacer tube, and then use a .020" shim...but that means pulling it apart and trying to shave only .002" off it, while keeping it square. Its something you would want to do on a lathe or a mill, which means a trip to the machine shop. A bunch of hassle for a 3 in/lb adjustment! The only thing that would change my mind, is if the mesh pattern is off after shimming the carrier. If I need to pull the pinion bearing off to make a depth adjustment, I might as well fiddle with the pre-load shim at that same time (since I will have it all apart again). Otherwise, I'm leaving it as-is.

 

[06 H3]

Heres the deal with my brothers jeep. He will get destroyed on this one in terms of labor.

He's towing it to a 4x4 shop to have them finish it. With the price of a tow he could of bought a shim kit and a dial indicator and have me finish it for free but he is very impatient and said **** it. He also could of drove it over there in front wheel drive if he pulled the rear driveline. The backlash wasnt terrible, just not something I would want to drive off road. It was a lack of tools and lack of patience for him. This **** usually happens with him, I try to help out and save him money and he usually gives me incomplete or screwed up things to do the job and I dont stop myself before I dive in. I should of had required him to get me a shim kit and a dial indicator before we started.

This has happened in the past too..for example his Dana 44 we built. Aftermarket parts collided with that project as he doesnt do research throws a bunch a **** at it, then the parts arent compatible with each other, he loses his patience while I offer to try and modify and work with what we have and he says screw it then gets killed on pricing at a shop. When the going gets tough I try to sit back, think and try to problem solve...He doesnt do that.


As for the wear of the R&P, I wouldnt be surprised if its because he thrashed his diff cover on a trail lost a crap ton of Diff fluid and drove home that way. He poured over a quart into the diff and it still wasnt full. Thats my assumption or the guy who did his gears did a crap job and its off...Not sure.

Just kinda pist off at the overall situation. I love my brother to death but we just have a different way of doing things

 

[MaxPF]

That looks like a bunch of wear for 10K miles! I've always been a DIY guy...not only for budget reasons but, also because I don't trust much of the workmanship done by so called "pros". I am far from a pro...but I am totally accountable for my own work (and sometimes I have to learn from my own mistakes). My dad taught me that if you want it done right...do it yourself. The longer I'm around, the more this seems to be true! But it often means a lot of studying and self-education, and double the downtime because I want to be sure I'm doing things right. You're not alone, CP...hang-in there. Nothing ever goes as smooth as you first think. For instance...

(I would love your input on this MaxPF)...I just happen to be in the middle of a 12-bolt R&P install on my 69 Impala.
SOLID PINION SPACER:
After following 06H3's thread on his AAM-7, I decided to dump the crush sleeve and install a solid pinion bearing spacer. That went pretty smooth, except I had to choose between a .016" and a .020" shim. This resulted in me having to choose between "obviously way too tight" and "only 5 in/lbs." of preload. Since I am using used bearings and also a used pinion seal (less drag than a new one)....I'm going to run the pre-load as-is, at 5 in/lbs. I suppose a .018" shim would get it perfect but, there wasn't one included in the solid spacer kit...so I'm gonna punt on that one. This car only sees about 500 miles of driving each year, so there is not much wear on anything.

What's spec for used bearings on that axle? 5 in-lbs is probably ok. If you're really concerned you could buy some thin shim stock and cut your own shims.

PINION BEARING SHIM:
I'm replacing a Richmond 4.10 gearset with an identical Richmond 4.10 gearset. When I compared the pinion depth number (engraved on the end of the pinion gears)...I found them to be within .002" of each other. So as a starting point, I just transferred my existing pinion shims to the new gear, along with the used pinion bearing. This seems to leave a nice pattern on my initial test fit. I use a thin coat of aerosol lithium grease to check the pattern...its easy to read and you can wipe it off, and re-apply as many times as necessary.
CARRIER SHIMS:
After I got the pinion in place, I did my first run (using the carrier shims that were already in the axle) and found the backlash to be around .020"...way too much. So, I ordered a shim kit from Summit. Delays delays delays. After correcting the backlash, I'll check the pattern again, and hopefully button it up.

BTW...this repair is a result of the ring gear bolts FALLING OUT! After 10-years of worry free, loc-tighted, service...the bolts just decided to come loose. Two were completely out...one in pieces (taking teeth with it)...and the other 10 ring-gear bolts were removed without a wrench. Crazy! I've never seen anything like this. Apparently this is not un-common with 12-bolts, so I ordered some cross-drilled, 12-point ring gear bolts (from Mark Williams), a new gearset, and clean & inspected everything else. Other than some obvious tooth damage...it all looked good. This time, I have lock-wired the ring-gear bolts in place. They will not be coming loose again.

9" Fords have this problem under hard use. 10.25" Sterling axles also are known for this. The guys who run 9" Fords have tried safety wire and it broke! They ended up using Stage 8 locks, or using drag racing R&P sets that are drilled and tapped for 16 bolts (vs 8 stock), drilling the extra holes in the carrier, and running all 16 bolts. The Sterlings were fixed by using different bolts (from a Dana axle app, IIRC). I've never really heard of GM or Dana axles having the problem. I don't use Loctite on R&P bolts. Instead, I use ARP assembly lube to give consistent torque, and torque them to spec in 3 stages. So far, I've never had bolts come loose.

 

[4speedfunk]

Spec on the 12-bolt pre-load is 14-19 in/lbs (new). I'm assuming 10-15 in/lbs (used), since I can't seem to find anything but opinions. Pre-load on used bearings must be somewhat subjective, and I keep hearing "rules-of-thumb" and such. I think I'm good just as long as I'm somewhere between 5 & 20...and I am.

On the ring-gear bolts...
This car weighs a hefty 4600lbs with me, and it runs 12.90s with 10" wide DOT drag radials. Its a 502-BBC with a Tremec 5-speed and I turn it loose at 3500 rpm, shift at 6000. I have flogged this car for 10 years on street and strip, and of all the stuff that could go wrong...ring-gear bolts backing out was the furthest from my mind, (I'm actually more concerned about my stock c-clip axles!). This bolt issue is a first for me and I still don't know the cause but, I suspect some sort harmonic vibration or something...or perhaps out-of-date loc-tight...or ??? Whatever the cause...if it happens again, after being wired...the bolt heads will be welded to the carrier flange!

I did speak to several axle tech guys on the phone, and they all said that while not common...it does happen. None of them could really point to a root cause.

 

[4speedfunk]

I'm back on the ground...all seems good. No whine...no leaks...feels very smooth. I'm going to put a few miles on it before I flog it. Any news on the JK diff?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[06 H3]

Yep...took it to the shop. The guy couldn't get in the shims without a case spreader. He said its pretty rare for him, normally he can...at least I wasn't alone lol.

Used the locker this weekend and it worked great! Just need some adjustment in the cable.

 

[4speedfunk]

Just need some adjustment in the cable.

Is it an OX-locker?

 

[06 H3]

Yea

 

[4speedfunk]

Nice. I've been familiar with OX's for a long time but never seen one up close on the bench. The internals look beefy as hell. I like the idea of having an external, mechanical engagement...and the OX seems to be well thought out. If I understand correctly...it can be ran with electric, air, cable, or hand lever operation and uses the same cast cover for all these modes? (you select the type of operation with different control kits, right?) One thing that always bugged me about the ARB (and the Eaton-E) is that the engagement mechanism is part of the diff itself. If you're locker isn't engaging...you got to tear things apart. But the OX uses a sliding collar much like a CAD or a syncro ring inside a gearbox, and it is easy to get to because its on the cover. Sort of crude in comparison...but I can totally see the advantage.

Best of all, its a true open diff (un-limited slip) when its not being used, so its a good choice for the H3 and the plethora of on-board electronic systems. Let me know how the OX works out...definitely on my locker "short list".

 

[06 H3]

Yea, the OX unit gets my approval it is beefy for sure. What is also nice about the unit is a rebuild seems super simple. There is some very easy pre assembly required and after taking off the top locking mechanism piece off all parts are beefy and look easy to replace. The pre assembly is just putting springs in to make sure the collar is unlocked unless pressure is being applied.

All modes of locking use the same diff cover and with that the diff cover is BEEFY! I dont think I have seen one that beefy before. The manual cable locker is what my brother has. It definitely takes some adjusting. I did all the pre assembly, tear down of the open carrier putting the new ring gear on etc. but the shop used a case spreader to install it. They didnt screw the cable in far enough to get proper "throw" when shifting. For the weekend it worked but we jerry rigged it with putting the entire shifter screwed on or off. Now we have to backtrack and adjust it.

The electric version still uses a cable (just much shorter) as it mounts to the framerail not inside and uses an electronic actuator to push/pull the cable. So when you hit the switch the electronic actuator does the work not you physically shifting it.

Lastly the air method ditches the cable all together. One of my favorite parts through all the methods is the "drive away lock" which I will tell my brother to pick up.

[video=youtube;tYPjhh30HsI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYPjhh30HsI[/video]

 

[4speedfunk]

Nice to have "redundant systems". Being able to crawl under the truck and manually engage/disengage is a huge plus IMO.

The only downside I see is that your bro chose to go with a 35-spline carrier. While its certainly stronger...its also "special". I've crossed that same bridge myself and decided to stick with stock splines. The reason being that if I break a shaft in the middle of spittle-county, USA...I can probably poke around and find a junkyard shaft to swap-in to get me home. Once you go 35-spline...you either carry your own $700 spare, or you park it and wait 2-weeks until one arrives via UPS. Hopefully, the new cro-mo shafts are un-breakable and you should have no need to carry spares. (yeah right...remember the Titanic?)

 

[06 H3]

yea, that is the biggest downside. I think he should carry rear spare shafts but its expensive.

I am all about building a rig that has parts readily available to get me home. If he breaks one in moab aka jeep country I am sure he will be fine as they probably stock it. If he breaks one in Iowa he may be screwed....

It just sucks there is never a "no downside" decision lol

 

[jakesz28]

I would think a good 35 spline axle will hold up. Different world but I leave te line on a transbreak with nitrous and never broke a 35 spline axle. Sometimes moving up is the safe move. I maybe mistaken but I think my axles came with a lifetime warranty. If it breaks they reserve the right to force me to upgrade to 40 spline though.

 

[06 H3]

I hope he doesnt break it. lol If not and we are in Iowa we may be stopping by your house. :wink:

An update though, we pulled the cover off and the guy who installed it has one of the shims "walk" out. Thats why I dont like others doing work on my rig or my brothers. It may have been installed properly the first time and walked out after the install. I did a search and it seems common...



http://www.jkowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86646

http://www.jkfreaks.com/forums/showthread.php?7553-Carrier-shim-movement

http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?242673-D44-carrier-shims-slightly-shifted

Not sure why they walked out especially seeing I couldnt get them in then the jeep shop couldnt unless they used a case spreader. We may go down to hoopers rear ends in sun valley. they are a little hole in the wall shop that has been setting up gears for ages. I havent heard of them screwing anything up so we shall see.

And I forgot to post up the final setup, excuse the dust. The ox shifter is on the right.

 

[4speedfunk]

Don't worry...the shims can't walk too far. The axle runs thru the center of em.

 

[06 H3]

Lol I know they can't fully walk out with the shafts but isn't it a concern that they can grind on the axle shaft