SO.... is there really no way to fix the steering rack issue on the H3?

[Hunner]

Ya I have seen that website a couple times... I'm generally afraid of a website that looks like that, but it's good to know that it is legit.

Yeah it is loaded with information. Randy is a stickler for detail and wants to make sure he explains things. We had some rather long phone calls and emails.
He has done work for teams and individuals that generally remain confidential.
You will find him very knowledgeable but somewhat protective of his design details and methods of fabrication.
The final outcome has been great for me. Now that 16mm rods are somewhat available and drivers have adapted to the H3, these may not be for everyone.

This is when the powdercoat and decal were new on my 06.

I ran them about 50,000 miles and now they have been on the Alpha for about 40,000. The critics thought the "aircraft quality spherical rod ends" would crap out quickly but I am still running them and they are not loose. I guess you get what you pay for?

 

[Schwarttzy]

but the way these break it's the structure of the main part of the rack that's the issue. Keeping the spreading force from being possible IMO, is the only real way to fix it.

So why not weld on a solid bracket of some sort that distributes the load properly with a brace coming off the driver side bolt? Also, if I did this I would move the rubber bushing from around the R&P to the base where the two screws bolt up to the frame.

 

[atvspeed4]

So why not weld on a solid bracket of some sort that distributes the load properly with a brace coming off the driver side bolt? Also, if I did this I would move the rubber bushing from around the R&P to the base where the two screws bolt up to the frame.

We are thinking aluminum solid bushings driverside, the clamp passengerside and these tierods. Then comes some serious testing before the winter! Also we will have the option of installing the clamp and then tack welding the top piece of the clamp to the actual rack and pinion and then removing and completely welding the top clamp to the rack. This would allow you to install and remove the rack but solid mount it from ever moving. It would be kinda like the second mount that comes from the factory on the silverado rack.

Thats the plan weld on the top clamp and bolt into the factory holes. Minus the rubber bushings. No more bushings, its time to mount solid.

 

[Schwarttzy]

Alright here is rough sketch of what I'm talking about, basically it would welded to the outside on the passenger-side and bolt into the two bolts on the driver side. Also move the rubber bushing to the frame below the two bolt holes.

As long as the welding takes and doesn't destroy it the thing would be a tank.

Obviously these are ruff sketches.

 

[06 H3]

Damn! Im in!!!! That thing looks like it would defintely take the abuse and link it all together

Flex lines may be mandatory for this though...It may cause interference issues with hard lines.

 

[Hunner]

How strong do you think that rack tube material is? It looks thin to me. Maybe ok for those hydraulic fittings but I don't know about holding forces exerted by OEM tie rods either with or without torsions turned up.
I guess you are considering that a heat sink and water cooling should definitely be considered if there is any welding.

One thought I still have is to weld one side of my sleeve to the bracket and the teeth on that half would hold the inner sleeve half from sliding for those that did not do any grinding to hold it in place better. That of course would be with no bushing and mounted solid like the sleeve on mine is done or maybe the neoprene idea as well if you cannot get it tight by grinding.
That way no possible damage from welding would be done to the rack or if you still have warranty concerns. I can hear that problem at a dealer now............
This is like the never ending story and will be interesting to see what fix works best now that I am joined in the party as others are getting high mileage and enough off roading to cause a problem. I been there a long time on two different H3's.
My fixes have all been to NOT void warranty by virtue of being removable if necessary but they may not be a problem at this stage.
Mod on! (as they say)

 

[backcountryislife]

I'm gonna have to turn my torsions up a few turns by the time we get done adding stuff to this rack :wink:

I like the idea for linking it, whether welded or some type of clamp on the end... holding the sleeve tight to the drivers side would be huge. Then if it moved a bit... it's ALL moving the same way. After solid mounting it though... I don't see that happening.

 

[Hunner]

Schwartzy that is the ole "girdle" theory and was proposed by BP back in the day for the H3 but never implemented. I have drawings of his idea but went with the center bracket for an easier solution here at my shop.
I went for the KISS method or "Farmer Fix" that's one notch about "Redneck fix"
Could work but the pass side would still need to be attached or secured in the "girdle" lol
That may stick, "The Schwartzy Rack Girdle" knock one out.

Lets also throw in,,,,,(we covered a lot of other things) this always gets a stir going...........
I still don't think cranking up torsions higher than about 23 1/2 is a real advantage compared to other factors affected.
In fact as a hold out for 285 tires for all the reasons I have stated in the past, I did not run the 315's until I got a set that came used mounted on rims I bought. The maybe 3/4" clearance is still important to some depending on where they go and the "look" but I sure went a lot of places with the 285's and have a winch.
I have to get tires now and have to believe the heavier bigger tires are a contributing factor to some of this as well as mileage.
So for this winter I am going to run some Dick Cepek FCII made by Cooper and stud-able, in a 285 on my second set of rims. They have a hybrid tread that will suit my needs as well as the same Armour tech carcass with 3 ply sidewalls one lateral that MTZ and STT have and I already have chains that size.
http://www.dickcepek.com/tires.php?item=RadialFCII

http://www.discounttiredirect.com/d...pc=27971&tmn=Discoverer+ST+Maxx&typ=Truck/SUV

Thankfully these new ones don't have "Fun Country" on the sidewalls. lol
What else should we throw in the mix??? lol

 

[reaper]

I'm in too!!!! How long until they're made and do you need funding?

 

[atvspeed4]

Well shop said need a week to get time to print the 3d prototype for the clamp so we can give an update as soon as we get one. As for tierods, just need time to drop off the adjuster sleeve plans at the shop. Hope to do that tomorrow morning.

 

[alrock]

I think this is the answer if you don't want to do a SAS. Steering components fail on any build, doesn't matter whether you've got this or D44s, D60s, whatever. I think securing the rack like this will help minimize failures but of course won't stop them. The rack may be a weak point on the H3 but with these reinforcements I don't think it is an absurdly weak point.

 

[Schwarttzy]

Schwartzy that is the ole "girdle" theory and was proposed by BP back in the day for the H3 but never implemented. I have drawings of his idea but went with the center bracket for an easier solution here at my shop.
I went for the KISS method or "Farmer Fix" that's one notch about "Redneck fix"
Could work but the pass side would still need to be attached or secured in the "girdle" lol
That may stick, "The Schwartzy Rack Girdle" knock one out.

Damn! Im in!!!! That thing looks like it would defintely take the abuse and link it all together

Flex lines may be mandatory for this though...It may cause interference issues with hard lines.

I'm in too!!!! How long until they're made and do you need funding?

Well, one way or another I want wheel the heck out of my Hummer some day. Of course I'm super broke right now because of a lack of work but I'm not going to give up. Which mean eventually something need to be done to fix this issue.

SO I guess the first step would be to try welding some metal stuff to it... does anyone happen to have a Rack and Pinion that is doing nothing, maybe broken, for me to experiment on?

 

[Schwarttzy]

I think this is the answer if you don't want to do a SAS. Steering components fail on any build, doesn't matter whether you've got this or D44s, D60s, whatever. I think securing the rack like this will help minimize failures but of course won't stop them. The rack may be a weak point on the H3 but with these reinforcements I don't think it is an absurdly weak point.

Not sure why I never said anything before, but I love those photo's of yours. The one on the right is one of my favorite spots in Moab.

 

[backcountryislife]

does anyone happen to have a Rack and Pinion that is doing nothing, maybe broken, for me to experiment on?

Nope. Don't have ANY spares around here....:giggle:

Sending one to CA... the other can go to you...

 

[alrock]

Nope. Don't have ANY spares around here....:giggle:

Sending one to CA... the other can go to you...

Send out another 10 or so and you might be able to get into your garage soon.

 

[Schwarttzy]

Nope. Don't have ANY spares around here....:giggle:

Sending one to CA... the other can go to you...

Sweet! I'll PM my address and I can pay the shipping if you want me to.

 

[06 H3]

I think this is the answer if you don't want to do a SAS. Steering components fail on any build, doesn't matter whether you've got this or D44s, D60s, whatever. I think securing the rack like this will help minimize failures but of course won't stop them. The rack may be a weak point on the H3 but with these reinforcements I don't think it is an absurdly weak point.

Agreed. Nothing is bulletproof. For beefing up the JK steering most use PSC steering...That is over 1k, thats stupid expensive for beefing up the steering.

I find it amazing how bebe and neo have done some of the toughest trials in California and Moab and managed to keep their trucks in good shape, for the most part.

 

[Chook]

Just a little more information that didn't come out in the Ultimate Power Steering Video........ When I picked up my H3, Warwick said to me he is very confident the bushes were holding the rack tightly. He said when he tested it (& shot the video) he could see the chassis flexing. That to me hints it is now holding as strong as welding it or any other bracket option that we could do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4jpHf-WMVU

 

[reaper]

Chook-- what was the cost on that? I emailed him for a set but haven't heard back. Would gladly buy a set right away without waiting on the website ordering...

 

[backcountryislife]

Agreed. Nothing is bulletproof. For beefing up the JK steering most use PSC steering...That is over 1k, thats stupid expensive for beefing up the steering.

I find it amazing how bebe and neo have done some of the toughest trials in California and Moab and managed to keep their trucks in good shape, for the most part.

You do realize that Moab is nothing like what we have here though right? VERY different. Also, Bebe is nowhere near stock & has a 1500 HD rack in hers.
That said... go do those trails daily, and it changes things.

I've seen jeeps break... just had to use a piece of tube & some webbing to hold a d35 rear axle in the housing a couple days ago... AWESUM!!!!:whaa:

But... of the guys who wheel regularly with me, the guys with rubicons HAMMER on them and don't break stuff, while I timidly tiptoe on a line near them & snap racks.
There's plenty of reasons not to buy a jeep, don't get me wrong, there's a reason I have the 3... but trying to compare the front axle in the rubicon to the setup in the 3 is pretty laughable.

The main thing about the jeep though... if I break something... there IS a product out there to fix it stronger than it was before. If that product really existed for the 3 we wouldn't have a 20 page long thread about the steering rack, and a ton of talk about the front diff. A rubi isn't some bulletbroof be all, end all, nor the holy grail... it's just a little more suited to what I do. Doesn't mean the 3 is a POS (though the rack IS!!) just means that it's not ideal for the abuse I give it.


My last full day out in mine (over 2 months ago now) my buddy with a stock rubi with a lift & tires (ZERO other upgrades aside from cosmetic) was doing this kind of thing:

While I'm doing this:

And breaking my rack & ring gear.

He's had his for a little longer than me, wheels WAY harder than me, bumps things I would never bump, guns it when I never would... and he's broken nothing in the time he's had his.
It's not "perfect" but to say that the durability is on par with the 3 is hugely innacurate IMO. (front axle that is)

That said... lets figure out how to make this work so that I can wheel with whoever I sell my 3 to!!!:thumbs:

 

[Chook]

Chook-- what was the cost on that? I emailed him for a set but haven't heard back. Would gladly buy a set right away without waiting on the website ordering...

Mine came out @ $289.50 but that is not representative of what the final H3 kit will cost as he had to order in an aftermarket kit for another vehicle & 2 hrs labour for the modifications & fitting to my vehicle etc. + Taxes.

Price breakdown on my invoice:
Donor parts $109.50
Labour $180
Tax $26.31

Warwick said a kit that wouldn't need modifying would be ready within a month but if anyone needed it straight away contact him and he could order the donor parts, modify them for you before sending.

I don't know what the price would be but looking at my invoice I would say the kit price should be close to the $109.50 (If you wanted a modified one now then add a little more for the mods but it would be a lot less than the 2hrs they charged me as all the measurements are done, he knows what to modify & how, + he is not fitting it to your vehicle). Not sure what the Shipping would be nor if he adds taxes if he is shipping it overseas.

Hope this helps..........

Cheers,
Chook

P.S. Not sure when you emailed him but FYI it is 0700 Friday here at the moment which might explain why he has not yet replied but he should be at work shortly. His website shows his opening hours and you need to account for timechange for Brisbane, Australia.

 

[SC_Hummer_Guy]

Dang, every freaking time I read this thread, 10 mins later something new is up about it. We gotta find something reliable fast cuz this is just getting absurd.. Thanks GM for being retarded! haha

 

[backcountryislife]

Dang, every freaking time I read this thread, 10 mins later something new is up about it. We gotta find something reliable fast cuz this is just getting absurd.. Thanks GM for being retarded! haha

I think there are a few serious mods in the works that when paired would do the trick very well. (Hoping!)

 

[4speedfunk]

does anyone happen to have a Rack and Pinion that is doing nothing, maybe broken, for me to experiment on?

Yes...I got a trail spare that is cracked and separated (like they all do)...only about 1/4" or less. It still works, and does not leak. $40 shipped.

trying to compare the front axle in the rubicon to the setup in the 3 is pretty laughable.

Amen to that! So true. Then again trying to get an H3 to rock crawl is equally laughable. IMO...the H3 is just too heavy for that type of wheeling and the suspension is not designed for the full-on abuse of rock crawling. I'm an avid off-roader and I love both Jeeps and Hummers but they are very different vehicles. Time and time again people try to compare the two...when there really is no comparison. Here's why:

Jeeps are off-road vehicles adapted to the street.
H3s are street vehicles adapted to off-road.
Period.

Thats the difference, and thats what you must overcome if you want to hang with a Jeep thru those boulder fields. But before you sell the Hummer and get a Jeep for its off-road prowess...you should spend equal time on the pavement in a Jeep! There as poor on-road as the Hummer is off-road, (maybe even more so)! Then you need to consider how much time you spend wheeling compared to how much time you spend driving on the pavement...and base your choice on that. Wheeling at the level you show in those pics can be a very expensive hobby. You (or anyone else) shouldn't expect a stock H3 to survive that. If that's truly what you expect then, I would strongly recommend the Jeep....or you're gonna have to build the p!ss out of your H3 to take it.

Everything is a compromise.

 

[backcountryislife]

Yes...I got a trail spare that is cracked and separated (like they all do)...only about 1/4" or less. It still works, and does not leak. $40 shipped.


Amen to that! So true. Then again trying to get an H3 to rock crawl is equally laughable. IMO...the H3 is just too heavy for that type of wheeling and the suspension is not designed for the full-on abuse of rock crawling. I'm an avid off-roader and I love both Jeeps and Hummers but they are very different vehicles. Time and time again people try to compare the two...when there really is no comparison. Here's why:

Jeeps are off-road vehicles adapted to the street.
H3s are street vehicles adapted to off-road.
Period.

Thats the difference, and thats what you must overcome if you want to hang with a Jeep thru those boulder fields. But before you sell the Hummer and get a Jeep for its off-road prowess...you should spend equal time on the pavement in a Jeep! There as poor on-road as the Hummer is off-road, (maybe even more so)! Then you need to consider how much time you spend wheeling compared to how much time you spend driving on the pavement...and base your choice on that. Wheeling at the level you show in those pics can be a very expensive hobby. You (or anyone else) shouldn't expect a stock H3 to survive that. If that's truly what you expect then, I would strongly recommend the Jeep....or you're gonna have to build the p!ss out of your H3 to take it.

Everything is a compromise.

Well said... and that's a factor in why we didn't buy a jeep, but then we get more into it, and we realized what was right in our backyard. Originally I had no idea I'd get into the more serious stuff... but that's what's the closest to me. The Jeeps SUCK on the road... PERIOD, they're horrid to ride in, the soft tops are obnoxious, and the death wobble that is common is a real blast (my cummins used to get it... holy F****ING scary)

I don't really drive my 3 on road anymore though, and I live close enough to the trails that it's not a big issue if the ride sucks... but I'll still have to endure it twice a year to go be the black sheep of the black sheep...:giggle: I'm sure as HE!! not going to Heep week, I'll tell you that much!!!

For me... what I intended, and what I ended up doing were two very different things.... not the trucks fault that I changed purposes.