Things we learned on the trail - Diesel swap

[CaseyS]

So I got the 4bt on the trails for the first time this weekend. Had a lot of fun, put a nice dent in my window sill, and learned a few things of what I need to work on next.

1. I need a cooling fan. The 4bt runs cool on the road. I've been running around all summer without a cooling fan. Temps would creep up to the 3/4 mark sitting in traffic, and would cool right back down as soon as I started driving around. I bought a fan to install right before the trip, but it didn't fit so I went without one. Slow climbing put a lot of heat into the engine and I think a lot of it was from the transmission. I ran too hot for most of the day and had to stop and cool it off several times (sorry group!). This is a priority issue and am searching for the right spacer to get the fan installed.

2. Low range transmission shift control. My standalone controller has two separate shift tables, but I had never setup the table for 4lo operation. I shifted manually in lo and 2 and it worked fine for my needs. At some point I may want 3rd gear in low range but for now this will be low priority

3. Traction control does not engage. I wasn't sure of this but I verified that the wheel braking does not kick it. I will need to get the PCM flashed to remedy this. The ABS module that controls some of this was untouched. However, there is evidently some hooks in the ECU for engine torque menagement in order for the entire system to work properly. This will take some research to resolve. I never realized how much the traction control helps in loose terrain.

4. My transfer case is still being a jerk. I just replaced the shift fork. Did fine the first couple of shifts. Mid day went to shift back to 4lo and it did not want to go. At one point I had no mode lights on even though it had transitioned to lo range. I may have to pull it down again to inspect it.

5. The torque is fantastic. I find 4lo and 1st gear is only needed for real slow crawling. Hill climbing 2nd gear works better. Light throttle and it just walks up a slope. It will almost power my brakes at idle in low range unless I hold the brakes pretty firm. I have the non-adventure t-case. This engine and the 4:1 transfer case would seem to be too much gearing.

6. For a momentum run, 2nd gear low is a must. You don't have the high RPM ability for anything that you need to really goose it through. This may take some more learning.

7. At one point my throttle cable slipped and I was limited on power. I have plans for a drive by wire setup to eliminate the cable and improve my pedal feel.

8. At the end of the trip, somehow the main front differential bushing nut had backed loose. Ended up tightening this back up in the Wendy's parking lot. Will keep an eye on this. Not the first bolt this engine has vibrated loose.

9. Need to finish my exhaust. My down pipe is just slipped into the stock exhaust. I have never had the time to finish it. Several times the downpipe slipped off giving me an open exhaust straight from the turbo. Made the truck sound like a tractor. Cool turbo whine sounds though.

10. Made the 200 mile trip, wheeled for 6 hours on Sunday and drove back out to the interstate before refueling. Had about 280 miles on the odometer with 1/4 tank of fuel to go. I didn't check the mileage but I think it was around 17 mpg with the wheeling figured in. :mock:

11. My torque converter lockup is slipping again. Should be unrelated to any wheeling. I need to spend more time with the transmission and figure out what the issue is. This is the second torque converter on here already.

 

[3Hummers]

Great report.

 

[RamRod]

Best of luck to you! Hope you can get it all sorted out with relative ease!


Sent from handheld smoke signal device

 

[06 H3]

Awesome! I will be watching this closely...I dont have to say much more :shifty:

Traction control REALLY helps, all the people that say it hinders your off road performance probably had inferior systems that might acutally hinder the performance. What is kick ass is that you can drive so far without refueling.

Another question, do you still have the reduced power and CEL light on? Is there a way to remedy that. Its also crazy to think that the computer is so intertwined that you doing an engine swap messed with the traction control.

Either way good job! These are the "low buck" improvements I love. No need to do a big V8 by a shop when you can do a 4bt yourself.

 

[rsc]

Well, I wouldn't call it a plug and play engine swap. He did a lot of hard work, reverse engineering and fabricating from scratch. I'm glad people are paving the way for future swaps. I couldn't get it to run by myself, but with a little help in a couple areas I'm sure I could. Thanks for proving his out CaseyS.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

nice!

you're right, the traction control also has engine controls (drive by wire); but, you'll find the traction control works in 4-lo. What you might want to consider before you spend a great deal of time. Press and hold the traction control button to "shut it off" (it doesn't completely shut off) and try it. One thing you're seeing that we who have alphas see, is that the torque of the motor quickly overcomes the traction control - so the system may be working, but you have so much torque that you blow past the amount of braking the system uses. I've found that if you turn off the traction control, the system still operates the traction system, but it turns the stability portion off - which results in far better traction control. Again, with the torque, you could be beyond the system's capability at idle - so no amount of programming will help you (kind of a cool thing)... the fix is e-lockers.

 

[06 H3]

Well, I wouldn't call it a plug and play engine swap. He did a lot of hard work, reverse engineering and fabricating from scratch. I'm glad people are paving the way for future swaps. I couldn't get it to run by myself, but with a little help in a couple areas I'm sure I could. Thanks for proving his out CaseyS.

Not plug and play one bit, I meant "low buck" compared to dropping it off for a 6.2L swap for 20k and this will get better mileage and requires wayyy less electronics to run.

CaseyS and 4speedfunk are awesome. Between them they have paved the way for a 4bt swap and a low buck SAS.

I just finished my SAS and there would be no way in hell that I could do it without 4speeds help. I did small little things different then him but overall he was the pioneer. Same goes for CaseyS, if I ever do a 4bt swap I would get it done only because of him, I may do some things differently but the bulk of the pioneer work done by them is outstanding.

 

[CaseyS]

The "TRACTION FAILED" is on in the DIC. I also have "REDUCED POWER" (NOT) and "STAB SYS".

I never heard the clicking noise the modulator makes when the traction control engages. From other research, the reduced power is a protection mode that the ECU has gone into because of throttle body faults. In the OEM application, if there were a fault in the throttle body and the ECU lost command of the throttle, very bad stuff could happen. I think the ECU is programmed to limit fuel and probably rev limit by spark control if this occurs. I will have to research if this is also what is affecting the traction systems.

06H3 - Oil pan clearance pics

 

[USMC_TOP]

Question, would it be worth removing all the electronics in a conversion like this? I mean like gut the dash board and put mechanical gauges in? Or would it be too much work? That Diesel has to be a blast to tool around with in that 3!


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[CaseyS]

Too much work! All the dash gauges work. Tach, speedo, temp, fuel level.

Without fancy traction control, the next progression would be lockers.

 

[USMC_TOP]

So there is no way to retain the tc?


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[CaseyS]

I plan on calling blackbear this week to see what they can possibly do. I'm sure it can be retained, just need to remove all the parts in the ECU that are trying to call for the engine to do something.

 

[CaseyS]

Troubleshot some more of the transmissions issues this week.

I replaced my torque converter several weeks ago due to the first one burning the clutches from a self inflicted fault (the TCC solenoid bolts vibrated back causing a partial apply). I didn't change the fluid, but just topped it off when I reinstalled the trans. Even though the lockup was now engaging, I could still get it to slip at full throttle.

I decided to do a line pressure check before starting any work to see where I stood. Pressure was good at idle (50#) but seemed to be pulsing and was not rising over 100 with throttle. I checked the fluid and it was below the dipstick. The OEM dipstick tube is bolted to the I5 to hold it in the correct position.With the engine swap, the dipstick tube can push down further into the trans, so it is easy to get an incorrect reading. I added 1.5 qts and that resolved the line pressure problem. Steady at idle and 210+ with throttle.

I decided to do a short road testwith the gauge hooked up. Well..... my 140 psi tubing had no safety margin. I left a 300' slick from my driveway down the street. I backed up to the driveway and ended up adding 4 qts back in. So much for a fluid change.

The fluid was dark and smelled burnt. I'm not sure if this was related to some clutch wear plus the original torque converter burning up, or from running waaayyy too hot wheeling last weekend. Probably some of both. So after fixing the fluid level and line pressure issue, the transmission showed some new symptoms. I traced the symptoms to a cracked forwardpiston, or possibly cracked input drum. The problem is holding the forward clutches in. It is loading up in park and neutral, and causing weird behavior in reverse and 4th. Other than this, the transmission feels snappy now shifting gears and the lockup holds firm. This means the transmission needs to come down again. I'm going to find someone to do the work. I don't have the stomach to pull it down and tear it open again.

I'm not sure yet of the root cause of the failure. Engine power, too much heat, or just one of those things. I'm pretty sure this explains the transfer case shifting issues though. In neutral, the transmission was not unloaded which would explain the reluctance to go into 4lo.

Item #1 is resolved, I got my fan installed this past weekend. Hopefully I can get the trans resolved next week sometime and move forward to the next item.

 

[CaseyS]

Got it back on the trail today and some more testing.

1. Engine temps looked good in 85 degree weather. Temp gauge got up close to the 3/4 mark but never crossed it. Largely picked up temperature in slow uphill grunts.

2. My throttle cable clamp slipped some again. I pulled the clamp and bent it a little and tightened it up and it seemed to fix the problem. Even though my motor mounts I feel are too stiff on the road, I can feel some cable feedback in the pedal when the truck is really flexing and articulating so I think the mounts are doing their job. I need to get cracking on the drive by wire throttle to get my pedal feel back.

3. Transmission was definitely slipping last trip and I think what really did it in. Felt much better this time. I'm still shifting in manual in low range. First or second gear only. First gear is good for crawling, second gear is better for anything where you need a little momentum. For the terrain that I am on, it seems like the 4:1 transfer case would be too low.

4. I need to work on my exhaust. I have a slip joint from the downpipe back into the factory exhaust. It slips at least 1/2" overlap. When I bounce it up over obstacles, it tends to separate and I have a nice loud tractor sounding open exhaust. I'm not sure if the engine flexes that much (it really can't go too far) or if the frame or the exhaust hangars are moving around that much. A full 3" exhaust is in the plans at some point when I get around to it.

5. My transfer case left me in low range on the trail about 4pm this afternoon. Motor did not make any noise when trying to shift back to 4hi. I drove back up to the pavilion and pulled the encoder motor down. With the motor out and still plugged, there was no movement when the buttons were pushed. I used channel locks to shift it back to 4hi and drove it home. Something else to check on now.

6. Drove 85 miles to the trail, wheeled for 3.5 hours, drove back home. Odometer shows 190 miles and I'm not to the half tank mark yet.

Videos to follow soon.

 

[06 H3]

Awesome can't wait for the videos

 

[4speedfunk]

It might be possible that the control circuits from the dash buttons to the encoder motor have been defeated to "save the truck" (REDUCED POWER message). It may be very difficult to trouble-shoot the TCS, ABS, and Stabilitrac until you get the motor sensors satisfied and everything is operating in "normal" mode. All of my experience has been with a fully-functioning stock motor...so I'm not positive of this. Its just a hunch I have.

What we really need here is a "dummy-chip". You plug it onto the harness and it basically generates false signals for every sensor on the motor. No matter what is going on...the PCM would see the parameters of a 5-cylinder motor...idling in your driveway...on a perfect 70 degree day! Once you do that...you can run whatever outboard system and whatever motor you want. Faking-out the PCM is the only hope of retaining a fully-functioning H3. Obviously it would be more complicated than that but, that's what I envision. I have zero input on how to create such a device. Perhaps it would be easier to replace the GM software with a new version that would allow you to plug a laptop into it, and "lock" certain functions of the PCM, so CEL's (and REDUCED POWER) would never come on?

I used channel locks to shift it back to 4hi and drove it home.

And you still want to convert to throttle-by-wire? I say fix mechanical throttle cable. While you're at it...add a manual t-case lever! While you're at it...add a stick-shift tranny. While you're at it....(and on & on it goes). Before long you'll have that old Jeep you always wanted - LOL

 

[CaseyS]

The only signal it seems the transfer case controller board uses is the input from the VSS (vehicle speed sensor) which wont allow a hi to low shift until under 2 mph. This has all been working ok after I fixed the worn plastic shift fork and I transitioned modes probably 10-15 times yesterday with no issues. I think it may just be an unrelated swap failure of the encoder motor from 8 years of age. I'm going to troubleshoot it this week. You should be able to just put 12v to the motor terminal and it should turn.

I never really liked the throttle cable setup, but it works pretty well. There is not enough leverage on the throttle and the 4bt has a real stiff throttle return spring. Plus I still have the spring in the pedal. Because it is a push cable, you get vibration feedback to the pedal. So a hard pedal feel and a vibrating pedal wears on your foot on a road trip with no cruise. A throttle by wire setup will give the OEM pedal feel back that I want.

Add to the list

7. Need to get low range shift table working. In low range, run transmission line pressure to max. No reason to worry about hard shifts in low range, plus no reason not to have clutches squeezed hard under low range high torque scenarios.

8. If I could dig the throttle body wires out of the harness and reconnect them to the throttle body without much heartache, I may try that for a test to see if that clears some of the messages. I got a new message "SERV 4WD" when the transfer case failed so I wonder if that may be button related as well. If a button gets stuck down, it can cause that message.

 

[CaseyS]

I got some more trail time this past weekend. Played around on some moderate trails that were really wet and slick. I ran most of the day in 4hi street. I found that manually shifting to 1st in high range and just taching up to about 1500 rpm works great for a lot of stuff. I have the trans controller Set to shift pretty quick to second on the street so I never played much in 4hi first gear.

At the end of the day, I ended up getting stuck near the bottom of a ravine and had to get winched up. Lack of traction control killed me. I had 2 opposite corners unweighted and couldn't make it hook up. In trying to get out, I blew my power steering hose again. It failed where it was crimped and blew off. I thought I had broken the steering rack. I had to strong arm it out. Made the 80 mile drive back home with an empty power steering system and trashed the pump. I have to replace that when I get back in this week.

I put a call in to PCM of NC today. If I can clear up nothing else besides the traction control in the pcm I'll be happy. I can live with a check engine light, but lack of traction control will force me to find a way to get both ends locked.

 

[06 H3]

Traction control works great on the 3. Hopefully you can get it back.

What lines are you running? Can't believe they failed....

 

[CaseyS]

It appears to be a top quality hose and I had it crimped up at the local NAPA. Second time it has failed and the hose separated from the end fitting like the crimp was not tight enough. Going to bring the whole thing to a true hydraulic shop tomorrow.

Got an email back from PCM of nc and said they likely could not help on the traction control. Going to contact a few others to see if anyone knows what specifically is disabling the traction control. The braking should be separate from the engine management but I'm pretty sure torque management is part of the stabilitrack and also the traction control so that's likely the issue.

 

[Scarsman]

Yes, the traction control is linked to the stabilitrac and I'm pretty sure torque management too. While my H2 doesn't have stabilitrac, I learned with my recent custom tune that the traction includes engine control too, because it not only applies brakes, it also pulls timing to reduce engine power.

 

[06 H3]

that does scare me, I am running NAPA lines on mine. They made custom ones for me, I think there is a hyrdulic line shop by me. Maybe I will pick up a spare set.

 

[cgalpha08]

Directly across the street from my NAPA is a hydrolic shop....talk about convenience