Differential cross member bushing question??

[Nikal]

I know Outfitter, Preferred Chassis, Jeep Perf and a few others have made front differential bushing kits. They all look like nice kits and probably solve the bushing issues for good.

Is there a reason why on the crossmember bushing you could not just make a poly or Delrin spacer to go on the bottom of the cross brace between the stock bushing & washer to reduce the amount of flex and keep the bushing center from pulling through?

Wouldn’t this solve about 80% of the problems as it seems like the majorly of the bushing failures is that one bushing.

 

[Jeepwalker]

That might work if you can source one close enough. Or modify one like you say.

I thought about doing something like that. But in the end I just bought a cheap import one off ebay for like $9. At the time I just needed to git er dun! LOL. It was a quick change. I figured it would last a yr, but it's been good for 4yrs now and still seems good. I've gone through some pretty gritty boulder fields too. Last one being Engineer pass coming out on the Ouray CO side. I'll probably do the same thing again if it craps out.

Send some pics if of your mods if you do it.

 

[Nikal]

That might work if you can source one close enough. Or modify one like you say.

I thought about doing something like that. But in the end I just bought a cheap import one off ebay for like $9. At the time I just needed to git er dun! LOL. It was a quick change. I figured it would last a yr, but it's been good for 4yrs now and still seems good. I've gone through some pretty gritty boulder fields too. Last one being Engineer pass coming out on the Ouray CO side. I'll probably do the same thing again if it craps out.

Send some pics if of your mods if you do it.

My plan is next July or August to pull the H3 out to Colorado’s Durango, Silverton, Ouray & Telluride area. One of the reasons I bought his Hummer H3 was to do this trip and do the Alpine Loop, and some of the other easy/moderate site seeing adventure trails with the family. Maybe go to Glenwood springs and play in the hot springs water parks. Then work are way home via Utah and do a couple days of trail site seeing there too. Nothing to extreme. We have the UTV’s and prerunners for that.

Because of my Baja desert racing history, I called and was telling Chad Hall that I got this CE, and was asking about some of the stuff they did to the race H3’s. He was the one who got me thinking that I could probably make on the lathe and put a Poly or Delrin spacer in there. Still allow it to have some give (1/8-1/16 inch) but that it should greatly reduce the chance of the metal sleeve separating from the rubber bushing.

When you pressed your bushing out then in, what did you press against? Getting out you don’t care about damaging the bushing, but what about going in? Did you just press in against the flat metal top spacer? Did it go in easy?

 

[alrock]

In the pre-prototype world at Preferred Chassis, we had just a bushing from Energy Suspension to play with and a worn out factory bushing. Pieces had to be cleaned, modified and/or created to make it work. The short answer is yes, you can create your own poly or Delrin or whatever material bushing. You will want the inner sleeve and exterior washers top and bottom as the bolt should not be compressing the bushing. The factory piece, if I recall correctly, had a bottom bushing attached to the sleeve, and a new washer was created for the top.

The factory one fails simply because a lot of torque is applied to that rubber bushing and it tears up. The inner sleeve becomes detached from the rubber and the rubber keeps disintegrating.

 

[Nikal]

I actually called Preferred Chassis a week ago, and he said he no longer has core crossmembers to build, as people did not send them back. He also does not have the material to make any more, but said he’d see if he could get more? I offered to ship my crossmember to him if he could get the material to make one. Then he could build mine and ship it back. He said he’d look and see if he could get the material. But he’s never called me back, so I think he might not be interested in doing them anymore??

My thought was even more simple. It would use the stock H3 crossmember bushing mounted, but then just add a “Spacer” between the bottom of the stock bushing and the concave washer. My theory was If the differential can’t pull up on the lower washer because the poly spacer will not allow the lower washer to pull up, then the steel sleeve can’t try to tear away from the factory rubber bushing .

Am I thinking right or does this not make any sense?

Here is an example of where the spacer would go.

Also why does the washer mount curve down? Is there a reason or could it be flipped?

 

[Jeepwalker]

When you pressed your bushing out then in, what did you press against? Getting out you don’t care about damaging the bushing, but what about going in? Did you just press in against the flat metal top spacer? Did it go in easy?

The old bushing outer sleeve came out pretty easy on mine as I recall. I honestly don't remember how I did the job. I have a press and a bunch of different diam pipe adapters/collars I've made/collected over the yrs. But I'm pretty sure it came out with just a few whacks of the hammer on the concrete...as I recall. And hammered the new one in with a socket. I may have put a piece of pipe around under it, I don't remember. Whatever it took to do the job. You know how it goes. I bought one like THIS. Yeah I know ...cheap, but I have too many *I want to to it PERFECT* jobs that weren't getting done...lol. ...last I checked it was still good.

You'll love the Alpine Loop. What size are your H3's tires? I would personally start in Silverton and work back to Ouray. This is just my opinion, others might think different. I've done it both ways. Reason I say this is because 1) It's a lot more scenic IMO over by the Silverton side and you can go up to the summit's and be there earlier and get good pictures w/o worrying about any vehicle damage. And 2) the harder, rockier and long boulder-fields where damage *could* occur is right there close to Ouray. If anything is going to get damaged, then it's probably going to be over by Ouray and if it did, at least you had a good experience and got your pictures at the summit earlier! And you can get help or a tow back to Ouray. The 4:1 xfer gearing really came in handy on our way down. I had a rear shock that came loose (on the top) and was hammering around, but otherwise she handled the boulders fine. Somewhere along the line I had a front wheel bearing that went out ...but I made it home (wheel was nice and floppy). I didn't have any problems, but I can see how more robust tie-rods would be a good idea. I can see one bending going through big rocks. It all depends on the year, and what the spring snow melt does to the rocks ...and what lines a guy can take (other vehicles on the trail).

If you go that way, do some of the trails over in Moab too. Er, well, you've probably been there before. Truth be told some of the most fun and scenic trails are not extreme, and not likely to cause vehicle damage. Still need 4x4 for sure. But many of the tougher trails are kind of boring (from a scenery standpoint). There I said it....Just my opinion after doing a lot of trails out there for 20+ yrs. Long Trail, Onion Creek, Eye of the Whale ...White Rim Trail those are pretty fun trails, the views are great but not overly difficult. Gemini Bridges I remember was nice ...but that was a Looong time ago, lol. There's others I'm leaving out probably ...but yeah, get your H3 ready to go and you'll have a blast for sure!!! If your H3 is set up more extreme, then yeah, do some slick rock crawling!!

Um...don't forget to show pics if/when you go

____

 

[Nikal]

The old bushing outer sleeve came out pretty easy on mine as I recall. I honestly don't remember how I did the job. I have a press and a bunch of different diam pipe adapters/collars I've made/collected over the yrs. But I'm pretty sure it came out with just a few whacks of the hammer on the concrete...as I recall. And hammered the new one in with a socket. I may have put a piece of pipe around under it, I don't remember. Whatever it took to do the job. You know how it goes. I bought one like THIS. Yeah I know ...cheap, but I have too many *I want to to it PERFECT* jobs that weren't getting done...lol. ...last I checked it was still good.

You'll love the Alpine Loop. What size are your H3's tires? I would personally start in Silverton and work back to Ouray. This is just my opinion, others might think different. I've done it both ways. Reason I say this is because 1) It's a lot more scenic IMO over by the Silverton side and you can go up to the summit's and be there earlier and get good pictures w/o worrying about any vehicle damage. And 2) the harder, rockier and long boulder-fields where damage *could* occur is right there close to Ouray. If anything is going to get damaged, then it's probably going to be over by Ouray and if it did, at least you had a good experience and got your pictures at the summit earlier! And you can get help or a tow back to Ouray. The 4:1 xfer gearing really came in handy on our way down. I had a rear shock that came loose (on the top) and was hammering around, but otherwise she handled the boulders fine. Somewhere along the line I had a front wheel bearing that went out ...but I made it home (wheel was nice and floppy). I didn't have any problems, but I can see how more robust tie-rods would be a good idea. I can see one bending going through big rocks. It all depends on the year, and what the spring snow melt does to the rocks ...and what lines a guy can take (other vehicles on the trail).

If you go that way, do some of the trails over in Moab too. Er, well, you've probably been there before. Truth be told some of the most fun and scenic trails are not extreme, and not likely to cause vehicle damage. Still need 4x4 for sure. But many of the tougher trails are kind of boring (from a scenery standpoint). There I said it....Just my opinion after doing a lot of trails out there for 20+ yrs. Long Trail, Onion Creek, Eye of the Whale ...White Rim Trail those are pretty fun trails, the views are great but not overly difficult. Gemini Bridges I remember was nice ...but that was a Looong time ago, lol. There's others I'm leaving out probably ...but yeah, get your H3 ready to go and you'll have a blast for sure!!! If your H3 is set up more extreme, then yeah, do some slick rock crawling!!

Um...don't forget to show pics if/when you go

____

I have (33) 285/75-16 Cooper Discoverer AT3 XLT tires. Probably should have put a 315 (35) on it? If they were a 17 inch tire, I’d move them over to the Silverado and put 35’s before next year. I need to turn the torsions 1 more inch. It’s currently at 22 inches.

I totally agree rough & rocky might be more challenge exciting, but typically not scenic. This trip would be about scenic as my wife is not going to want to get bounced around. Plus I’m not interested in beating up the H3. I have other desert toys to play rough in. I want to keep this as a family cruiser that can take us in the backcountry to see the beauty you don’t see from the pavement.

My idea was go see Mesa Verde, then go to
Durango and do the steam train. Walk the town and check it out. Then next would be Silverton. Again check out the town then hit a few scenic short trails to get the feel for the area, then hit the Alpine Loop and go see the ghost towns and old mines. Probably go in and come out at Silverton, especially if we have the RV at a campground. I’d like to do Opher or Black Bear into Telluride. But if the family’s had enough or if Black Bear is a no go, then we can take the million dollar highway around and go check out Ouray & Telluride. Do the gondolas and watch my wife spend more money in the town! Lol. Then eventually maybe head to Glenwood to play in the hot springs.

 

[alrock]

That spacer might not allow it to pull up, but I highly doubt it would stop the side to side motion once the bushing is worn out. And that motion may cause the bolt to lose tension and it would all work loose.

 

[Nikal]

That spacer might not allow it to pull up, but I highly doubt it would stop the side to side motion once the bushing is worn out. And that motion may cause the bolt to lose tension and it would all work loose.

Thank you for pointing that out. I’m a newbie to the H3 abs it’s issues. Im just thinking out loud, and appreciate all the input.

 

[Jeepwalker]

I would say no-go on black bear. Or else park at the top, walk down and watch others. I did it in a rented 97 Blazer (the small one). Here are the reasons I say that: 1) Once you come over the top of the hill (mountain) on Black Bear it's nebulous ...and once you realize you're actually "ON" BBP, you're committed. Too steep, no turning or backing up. 2) Its really dangerous. because... 3) Its kind of stepped and in some cases yer vehicle hammers down these large steps ...bang, bang, bang. 4) Clouds can literally roll in in the snap of the fingers making it hard to see. We had some dirt bike guys ran into each other part way down and created a pile-up right next to me, where I had to stop and help them up. Fortunately nobody was hurt. 5) It can begin to sprinkle or rain at any time and that makes those rocky steps really slippery and dangerous. 6) You'd need to defeat your ABS ahead of time because what can happen is your ABS kicks in (esp if it's rainy & slippery) and then you literally lose brakes like ABS on ice ...and then it's a very fast white-knuckly ride to the bottom of the trail. That's what happened to me, and you pick up speed. Then you literally have 2 car lengths to make a 90* turn or yer going to take the 30 second tour all the way to the bottom of the mountain. If there were to be some moron sitting right there at the bottom taking pictures (and sometimes there are), you'd have to crash into them to stay alive. In my case there wasn't anyone there, we made the f-ing turn and that was that. But for a minute, I was thinking I'd have to bail. Now I have a great story to tell. Now, having said all that, the trail varies from yr to yr. And not all of the things above might happen to you. But back to the Alpine loop, that boulder field, it's not that bad, Most are like basketball size. You can pick your lines. I doubt it'll damage your vehicle. The only annoying thing is that it goes on a long time...when you'd rather be finished and move on. But ironically my daughter and wife were getting bored in the Alpine Loop, but loved the boulder area the most! My daughter still talks about it. I've done it a few times in rented stock vehicles too. So....

I'd rather see you and your wife spend more time doing the Alpine Loop (there are multiple ways you can go and explore the way to Lake City too. Or Imogene Pass. In fact, you ought to go to Telluride and drive up to Bridal Veil Falls. Crawl up the rocks to the falls and your wife would like to get some nice pictures there. Chicks love water falls!! And it's a beautiful view. Then take Imogene Pass from Telluride to Ouray. Ouray is really fun. I personally like it a lot more than Silverton. They have the hot springs there. There are more restaurants and a vibrant main street. That's just me and my wife's feeling...having been to both umpteen times.

And honestly, leave time to go do trails at Moab if you haven't. Even some of the driving/hiking to arches is spectacular. Those trails I listed above are spectacular. Moab and Ouray (Alpine loop) are the perfect Ying & Yang. 3hrs apart (the back way). Try to incorporate both. Just my recommendation.

 

[Jeepwalker]

Nice H3 BTW....(looks a lot like mine!)

 

[Nikal]

I would say no-go on black bear. Or else park at the top, walk down and watch others. I did that in a rented 97 Blazer (the small one). Here are the reasons I say that: 1) Once you come over the top of the hill (mountain) on Black Bear it's nebulous ...and once you realize you're actually "ON" BBP, you're committed. Too steep, no turning or backing up. 2) Its really dangerous. because... 3) Its kind of stepped and in some cases yer vehicle hammers down these large steps ...bang, bang, bang. 4) Clouds can literally roll in in the snap of the fingers making it hard to see. We had some dirt bike guys ran into each other part way down and created a pile-up right next to me, where I had to stop and help them up. Fortunately nobody was hurt. 5) It can begin to sprinkle or rain at any time and that makes those rocky steps really slippery and dangerous. 6) You'd need to defeat your ABS ahead of time because what can happen is your ABS kicks in (esp if it's rainy & slippery) and then you literally lose brakes like ABS on ice ...and then it's a very fast white-knuckly ride to the bottom of the trail. That's what happened to me, and you pick up speed. Then you literally have 2 car lengths to make a 90* turn or yer going to take the 30 second tour all the way to the bottom of the mountain. If there were to be some moron sitting right there at the bottom taking pictures (and sometimes there are), you'd have to crash into them to stay alive. In my case there wasn't anyone there, we made the f-ing turn and that was that. But for a minute, I was thinking I'd have to bail. Now I have a great story to tell. Now, having said all that, the trail varies from yr to yr. And not all of the things above might happen to you. But back to the Alpine loop, that boulder field, it's not that bad, Most are like basketball size. You can pick your lines. I doubt it'll damage your vehicle. The only annoying thing is that it goes on a long time...when you'd rather be finished and move on. But ironically my daughter and wife were getting bored in the Alpine Loop, but loved the boulder area the most! My daughter still talks about it. I've done it a few times in rented stock vehicles too. So....

I'd rather see you and your wife spend more time doing the Alpine Loop (there are multiple ways you can go and explore the way to Lake City too. Or Imogene Pass. In fact, you ought to go to Telluride and drive up to Bridal Veil Falls. Crawl up the rocks to the falls and your wife would like to get some nice pictures there. Chicks love water falls!! And it's a beautiful view. Then take Imogene Pass from Telluride to Ouray. Ouray is really fun. I personally like it a lot more than Silverton. They have the hot springs there. There are more restaurants and a vibrant main street. That's just me and my wife's feeling...having been to both umpteen times.

And honestly, leave time to go do trails at Moab if you haven't. Even some of the driving/hiking to arches is spectacular. Those trails I listed above are spectacular. Moab and Ouray (Alpine loop) are the perfect Ying & Yang. 3hrs apart (the back way). Try to incorporate both. Just my recommendation.

Thank you for your info. I’ll definitely be hitting you up for more questions as we get closer. I get excited just talking about it.

I thought the Alpine loop was pretty bolder free, except for the route from Ouray (Mineral Creek) to the Loop?

Good idea about disabling the ABS. I was also told disabling the Airbags is a good idea, as a few guys have had the H3 side window air bags go off if they hit a bump or rock wrong.

We have never done the Utah/Moab area. That’s one of the reasons I was thinking we head home that way and spend a day or two seeing some of the more popular sites.

 

[Nikal]

Nice H3 BTW....(looks a lot like mine!)

What size tire do you run and what other mods have you done or suggest for a Colorado trail trip?

I have 33 inch tires (stock sized), torsions adjusted to 23 inches, Bilstien 5100 shocks, Factory rock sliders. I have the Schwartzy (raised) rear shock mounts (not mounted, but came with the truck.) I’m looking at doing a Schwartzy or some form of solid smooth skids. I might make my own? You mentioned adding HD tie rods?

 

[Jeepwalker]

My tires are the same size as yours Hankook Dynapro AT2 (285's) ...stock size, Adv Pkg. Although when I did the Alpine loop last time I had bald Pirelli Scorpion's ..ha ha. .

 

[Jeepwalker]

I am going to re-cant my ABS statement and any recommendations on Black Bear Pass, and any trails & passes people do. Do your *own* research into the best way and modifications to do any of the trails and passes. Choose the best and safest approach and modifications based on your own research, not on any statements made by me.

 

[alrock]

Black Bear Pass is not a difficult trail but it it dangerous and intimidating. Keep it in low range, don't use lockers. You cannot relax and check out the scenery when driving down the switchbacks. Stop, get out, enjoy the view. Take your time on the hairpin turns and use a spotter if you're not comfortable. All that said, I really enjoy doing that trail and all of the others around Ouray.

When you take your family out and perhaps do other trails like Ophir Pass and Engineer Pass, if those are too much or at the limit of what they like, then don't do Black Bear. Those trails, and Imogene, offer plenty of heart-racing moments too but for the most part a bit less dramatic, or at least the scary points don't last quite as long. There's a lot to do in this area so don't feel compelled to do a trail that might not be comfortable for you. BTW, it's scarier on the passenger side for a few of these trails.

It is unlikely you will really test your H3's capabilities around Ouray. I've never bent a tie rod, or upgraded the tie rods. I've only helped do one trail repair for a bent tie rod - and I warned that driver that he had a 50% chance of damaging his truck on that obstacle. The tie rods are generally not a weak point after 2006 when they were smaller. Yes, upgraded ones are stronger, but my bet is you'll break the rack before you break the tie rods especially if you have not replaced the factory clamp mount with an upgraded one.

Good tires are needed. All terrains are fine, though mud tires with thicker sidewalls are better with the sharp rocks here. I came across an H3 that had just come off Engineer Pass on the OEM street tires - and he had three flats. You will want to air down.

Your H3 will be fine in Ouray without any more mods, but I highly recommend the steering rack replacement bracket.

 

[alrock]

BTW, I forget to address your question about pressing out the old sleeve. Basically, we just forced/tore/burned it out. The bushing itself has a metal outer sleeve we had to pry and cut out since it was already completely separated from the bushing. Some of these also just fall out, leaving you to get that metal sleeve out.

I think I went through five OEM crossmembers and bushing while under warranty. The shortest one lasted was about ten days, which included one day off road. Once I upgraded, I never had to replace it and I took it apart about once every year or two to inspect it.

 

[Jeepwalker]

Alrock...that was a nice summary on Alpine Loop trails. I pretty much agree with everything you wrote.

Also ...my H3 is bone stock. Adventure pkg. Lux Pkg. I really don't have any 'mods' ...I've had modded vehicles in the past, but the H3 was built to do trails like the Alpine Loop and Rubicon. Mods usually translate into less reliability. I replaced the shocks with the right Adv AC Delco's and all the other usual 50 other things that flake out on these H3's. Shocks are mono-tubes, probably made by Bilstein...but IDK that for a fact.

I didn't air down the last time I was on the Alpine Loop. They kind of aired down a little on their own as it gets colder as you go up ..and maybe they were a little lower to start with. I should have aired down on the boulder field. Thing is, I didn't plan (last time) to do the boulder field on the way down. They're really not boulders...depends on what a boulder is to you. We came to a few intersections on the Alpine Loop and after most of the day on the passes, my wife said she wanted to head back, and wanted to choose the best route. Daughter was complaining too. Ok..sounded good to me. I asked her to *avoid* that direction and take us back to Silverton b/c it takes a long time to go over that rocky boulder stretch. Well my wife said she wanted to pick the best route (because i've been known to take the "Long Route" on some trails, lol. Due to her great mapping and direction skills and saying "No, go this way...I'm SURE" ...when I had the feeling that wasn't the way, ...well, she took me the way we didn't want to go, and right into the boulder field. Then it was getting dark. It took forever (in 2020) to go over that stretch with just headlights. LOL. Nobody else on the trail...glad we didn't have any problems. But they both loved that part of the trail the MOST, Ironically. So, no I didn't air down b/c it crept up on me, and 2) I forgot how long that stretch was. It's actually a lot of fun to do ...and your H3 would do just fine. I've gone over that route in stock rented Blazers and Rodeos and my L/R Discovery. Once you come out, you're only a couple miles at most from Ouray, so you can air up down in town.

 

[Jeepwalker]

When I did the last trip on the Alpine loop with my H3, 2020, I had crappy tires. I mean they were low-tread Pirelli Scoprions I was going to replace in the fall. The trails and rocks can chip tires up, and I didn't care about those Scorpions. I didn't want to beat up a new set of meats. In the end they handled the trails and Moab trails just fine ...no damage. Knock on wood, I've never had a single tire problem on any of the CO or UT trails I've ever done, in almost 30yrs of wheeling out there! And many times we fly out and just rent a grand cherokee, Toyota, Chevy, or what have you at the airport. Stock street vehicle. And I won't tell you about the time I drove a newly-purchased beat-up Land Rover Discovery from San Francisco back to WI ...stopping and wheeling in all the common UT/CO/NV trails ...on bald Michelins and didn't have a jack or even a lug wrench in the vehicle! LOL. 13k feet and no lug wrench (I forgot it was the OTHER L/R we didn't buy, I verified had a jack). Those Land Rovers take like a 1 1/16" lug wrench too...which few guys would probably have on a trail. Never had a problem fortunately. I surely verify jacks now! I usually DO air down and try to pick lines that avoid the sharper rocks.

OP, not likely you'll have a tire problem, but make sure you're prepared. Also, Water, tools, flashlights, Communication device, tow strap, etc.

 

[Nikal]

So today I changed out my front differential crossmember bushing. The one in the crossmember was not totally failed, but you could see it was starting too.

I ordered one from Napa. It came with the new bushing, new bolt, nut and bottom washer, which was flat, but had a raised hard rubber lip around it.

I have no idea who made it for Napa? It does say on the box Made in China. But it looked really good, and Napa offers a limited Lifetime warranty.

It’s nice having my own press. I spent more time finding the right size socket to use to press against the bushing, then actually pressing it out. When pressing the new bushing back in, I did not want to press on the top of the sleeve and compress the sleeve in the rubber. So I took washers and stacked them between the the sleeve face and the rubber bushing to take up the gap. (I hope this makes sense?)

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NCD4654523?cid=paidsearch_shopping_dcoe_google&campaign=GSC-Drivetrain&campaign_id=10947735040&adgroup_id=107081865826&adtype=pla_with_promotion&gclid=CjwKCAjw8ZKmBhArEiwAspcJ7rxXaTd4re_WEQSsoHAyTKuZ7kQMEcH4Nh8SzTHDG9-GsGzV2YeDaBoCrEUQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&

 

[alrock]

Good find, glad you're all set up.