ReconH3
Guardian Angel
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- 2,288
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- Raleigh, NC
What he said. 
"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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4speedfunk
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 4,250
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- Tardville
Thanks for the spring info! My rig is up on jack-stands with the entire suspension gone. I'm tearing into it to do a similar SAS front with a SOA rear, and the coil-overs are very much a trial & error thang. Not sure where to start but, that helps a ton!
Whats your thoughts on coil-overs for everyday use, (winter, road-salt, etc.)? I've been looking at Ballistic's adjustable coil buckets, and I thought I might try some ZJ +7" front coils with standard outboard shocks. Figured the ZJ would be close to the same nose weight. The only issue I can see is maybe tire clearance (Jeep springs are 7" in diameter). I sort of like the idea of bolt-on shocks, so when things wear out...I don't have to pull the whole deal and send it off for rebuilding or whatever you do with coilovers. I may be jumping the gun on this question...not sure if I even have the room for standard coils. I'll be doing a "front axle test fit" this weekend...let you know what I find out.
Whats your thoughts on coil-overs for everyday use, (winter, road-salt, etc.)? I've been looking at Ballistic's adjustable coil buckets, and I thought I might try some ZJ +7" front coils with standard outboard shocks. Figured the ZJ would be close to the same nose weight. The only issue I can see is maybe tire clearance (Jeep springs are 7" in diameter). I sort of like the idea of bolt-on shocks, so when things wear out...I don't have to pull the whole deal and send it off for rebuilding or whatever you do with coilovers. I may be jumping the gun on this question...not sure if I even have the room for standard coils. I'll be doing a "front axle test fit" this weekend...let you know what I find out.
ReconH3
Guardian Angel
- Messages
- 2,288
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
Serious advice. Stay away from Ballistic fabrication. Many people have been ripped off. It's all over the 4x4 forums. I don't have enough experience to try to give you any numbers. What I can say is that I had a V8 WJ and my H3 Alpha is quite a bit heavier.
"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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4speedfunk
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 4,250
- Location
- Tardville
Thanks for the heads-up, Recon. Customer service is really suckin these days. I haven't done any biz with Ballistic but, I have been blown off by RCV, Off Road Design, Ruff-stuff, to name a few. I can't seem to get these people to answer emails or return phone calls. Really amazing considering the economy, and the fact that I'm sitting here with a VISA card in my hand. No big deal...there is a million places to get stuff. I just bought some SOA stuff from Barnes (in your area), and I'm looking at their generic 3-link kit to be the brunt of my front suspension.
MaxPF
AGNTSA
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- 1,394
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- The dark side of the globe
This ^^^^ big time! Avoid Ballistic Fab!
When you say "coil-over", are you referring to true coil-over shocks, where the shock body supports the spring? Or are you talking about spring buckets mounted to the axle and frame respectively, with the shock merely located inside it? I'm not a fan of true coil-overs on a DD because they pretty much all use spherical rod ends (AKA Heim joints) or a variation for mounting, and I have yet to see a rod end that has a good life span under such use. The main issues are that they are not a sealed joint and they have no wear compensation. When new they transmit noise and vibration very effectively, and as soon as they wear a bit and the ball starts rattling a bit inside the race they get 10x worse. I know lots of people use them and like them, but they will need a lot more maintenance and will degrade ride quality and increase noise. There is a very good reason the OE's don't use them...
Spring-in-buckets with independent shocks are another story. This is pretty much universally how the OE's do it. The spring usually rests on rubber inserts on the frame side or, in some cases, both sides, to reduce transmitted noise. Also, OE type shocks use rubber-mounted eyes for mounting rather than hard mounts like heims. Once again, this is done for noise and vibration isolation. Aftermarket setups usually use urethane instead of rubber, which is generally harder and transmits a bit more noise and vibes, but has the advantage of being much tougher and very long lived. IMO urethane is a good compromise unless you demand the absolute best NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) performance. Remember, race cars and rock buggies use heims and coil-overs, but they don't get driven day-in day-out and having low NVH is not an expectation.
Figuring out spring rates isn't that hard. You need to know how much weight is on the "axle". Go to a friendly scrap yard or other place with a scale and put just your front or rear tires on the scale. That will tell you your axle weight. Next, you need to figure out what you want for ride height. Then, figure out where you can mount the spring buckets. Once that is figured out, you should be able to measure or calculate the distance between the upper and lower bucket. That is your springs loaded height. Your height at max compression will be determined by coil bind, but in reality you don't ever want to get there because you will permanently deform (yield) most springs by getting anywhere close to that. The free (uncompressed) length of the spring will be determined by the springs rate and your desired loaded height. A lower rate spring will need to start out longer in order to compress to the desired height, while a higher rate spring will start out shorter and not compress as much. Too stiff a spring will make the truck ride like ass, while too soft will risk coil bind and/or permanent deformation of the spring. This is where the spring manufacturers can guide you to the proper spring for your weight, loaded height, and bucket diameter. I should mention that bigger diameter is always better when it comes to coil springs. So is greater loaded height... to a degree. Eventually at some ratio of diameter ho height the spring will start wanting to bend sideways and pop out of the mounts unless they are supported in the center, which the body of a coil-over shock does.
When you say "coil-over", are you referring to true coil-over shocks, where the shock body supports the spring? Or are you talking about spring buckets mounted to the axle and frame respectively, with the shock merely located inside it? I'm not a fan of true coil-overs on a DD because they pretty much all use spherical rod ends (AKA Heim joints) or a variation for mounting, and I have yet to see a rod end that has a good life span under such use. The main issues are that they are not a sealed joint and they have no wear compensation. When new they transmit noise and vibration very effectively, and as soon as they wear a bit and the ball starts rattling a bit inside the race they get 10x worse. I know lots of people use them and like them, but they will need a lot more maintenance and will degrade ride quality and increase noise. There is a very good reason the OE's don't use them...
Spring-in-buckets with independent shocks are another story. This is pretty much universally how the OE's do it. The spring usually rests on rubber inserts on the frame side or, in some cases, both sides, to reduce transmitted noise. Also, OE type shocks use rubber-mounted eyes for mounting rather than hard mounts like heims. Once again, this is done for noise and vibration isolation. Aftermarket setups usually use urethane instead of rubber, which is generally harder and transmits a bit more noise and vibes, but has the advantage of being much tougher and very long lived. IMO urethane is a good compromise unless you demand the absolute best NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) performance. Remember, race cars and rock buggies use heims and coil-overs, but they don't get driven day-in day-out and having low NVH is not an expectation.
Figuring out spring rates isn't that hard. You need to know how much weight is on the "axle". Go to a friendly scrap yard or other place with a scale and put just your front or rear tires on the scale. That will tell you your axle weight. Next, you need to figure out what you want for ride height. Then, figure out where you can mount the spring buckets. Once that is figured out, you should be able to measure or calculate the distance between the upper and lower bucket. That is your springs loaded height. Your height at max compression will be determined by coil bind, but in reality you don't ever want to get there because you will permanently deform (yield) most springs by getting anywhere close to that. The free (uncompressed) length of the spring will be determined by the springs rate and your desired loaded height. A lower rate spring will need to start out longer in order to compress to the desired height, while a higher rate spring will start out shorter and not compress as much. Too stiff a spring will make the truck ride like ass, while too soft will risk coil bind and/or permanent deformation of the spring. This is where the spring manufacturers can guide you to the proper spring for your weight, loaded height, and bucket diameter. I should mention that bigger diameter is always better when it comes to coil springs. So is greater loaded height... to a degree. Eventually at some ratio of diameter ho height the spring will start wanting to bend sideways and pop out of the mounts unless they are supported in the center, which the body of a coil-over shock does.
4speedfunk
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 4,250
- Location
- Tardville
Max...all true. I'm thinkin the same thing about coil-overs. Nice for the first 3-months...then an ever-increasing rattle-box after that. I see alot of builds that are brand new, all shiney and pretty...but I've yet to see any rigs driving around on 4 or 5 year old coil-overs. Plus...I'm building a driver, not a trailer queen. It needs to be reliable and low-maint. I'm all about the traditional coil-shock combo...I just don't know yet if I have the space.
One thing I do like about coil-overs is that they actually lean and pivot when the axle articulates, so the springs stay in perfect alignment and do their job well. Traditional coils will need to be anchored at top and bottom (so they don't pop out at full droop), and this makes em tend to bend & curve quite a bit...especially when we're talking about long ones. As long as the weight is on them...traditional coils seem to do the job just fine, however it doesn't seem as precise throughout the whole range of travel. I'm not really after "mega-travel", so maybe I can reach a compromise.
I have not entirely ruled out leafs...they have many advantages but, ride-quality is not one of em.
One thing I do like about coil-overs is that they actually lean and pivot when the axle articulates, so the springs stay in perfect alignment and do their job well. Traditional coils will need to be anchored at top and bottom (so they don't pop out at full droop), and this makes em tend to bend & curve quite a bit...especially when we're talking about long ones. As long as the weight is on them...traditional coils seem to do the job just fine, however it doesn't seem as precise throughout the whole range of travel. I'm not really after "mega-travel", so maybe I can reach a compromise.
I have not entirely ruled out leafs...they have many advantages but, ride-quality is not one of em.
SolidusJ
Well-Known Member
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ReconH3
Guardian Angel
- Messages
- 2,288
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
Rear bump stops installed. Pretty much in the same place as the factory ones but just outside the frame.
"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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ReconH3
Guardian Angel
- Messages
- 2,288
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
High steer setup in the works. Replaced all the heims with 1Ton rod ends. Much smoother and better for long term durability. Flipped the tie rod and pulled the ram up as high as possible. Couldn't go higher without running into issues. Only thing missing is a skid for the ram. That will be the next step.
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ReconH3
Guardian Angel
- Messages
- 2,288
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
This is my new Scepter MFC holder in the works. The latch system will be different and lockable. It will go in the place of the spare tire carrier. If anyone is interested in one, let me know, and I will see if they are willing to make more.
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H3slate
Brush raked
- Messages
- 983
- Location
- Tualatin, Oregon
The can holder is really cool looking. Where are you going to put your spare tire?
ReconH3
Guardian Angel
- Messages
- 2,288
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
Spare will go inside, flat on the floor. Right behind behind front seats. This will be for extreme 4x4 competitions/adventures/trips. Keeps the COG more in the middle and spare fuel outside. I'll be making a base that goes in the place of the rear seats. It will bolt in their place.
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- 10,515
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- Central Texas
What do you think they would charge for that set up?
ReconH3
Guardian Angel
- Messages
- 2,288
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
I'll let you know when it's done.
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"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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06 H3
a.k.a. "The Jackal"
- Messages
- 9,493
- Location
- Meridian, ID
Good idea, I learned a lot about COG from you after I did a lot of my mods...ur rig is looking awesome as always
ReconH3
Guardian Angel
- Messages
- 2,288
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
Slowly getting there!!!!
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"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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ReconH3
Guardian Angel
- Messages
- 2,288
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
Here's a couple of small mods I've been doing.
The Panavise phone mount I've had for a while but never posted any pics. It's incredibly well made and completely removable without leaving holes on your dash. It's specifically made for the H3. They have it for just about every vehicle out there. The base can accommodate just about every smart phone or GPS. You can use it with any protective cover out there. That's why I chose it. All the others were for non cover phone specific type. Also installed a Brunton boat compass. I got the boat compass because you can compensate for all the metal and electronics. Took a while to get compensated right, but now it's spot on. Reason I have it right in front of me is so I can do line of sight navigation if I ever need to. Even though I have a great Garmin GPS, I like to keep my old school gear at hand.
"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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The Panavise phone mount I've had for a while but never posted any pics. It's incredibly well made and completely removable without leaving holes on your dash. It's specifically made for the H3. They have it for just about every vehicle out there. The base can accommodate just about every smart phone or GPS. You can use it with any protective cover out there. That's why I chose it. All the others were for non cover phone specific type. Also installed a Brunton boat compass. I got the boat compass because you can compensate for all the metal and electronics. Took a while to get compensated right, but now it's spot on. Reason I have it right in front of me is so I can do line of sight navigation if I ever need to. Even though I have a great Garmin GPS, I like to keep my old school gear at hand.
"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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Last edited:
ReconH3
Guardian Angel
- Messages
- 2,288
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
Out with the old, in with the new. Since dealing with Wounded Warrior Project was no longer possible, I joined up with two new organizations that help and support the troops. The first being the Green Beret Foundation. They are just down from where I live and do a lot to help the SF guys down at Bragg. The other is the US Veterans Corps. They are a small group, but make a huge impact. They are very hands on, and do a ton of stuff for the vets. They have done a few houses for vets that needed them. Some have even been featured on Extreme House Makeover. These guys a literally in the next town over. I will be working with them quite a bit. Great group of guys.
"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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ReconH3
Guardian Angel
- Messages
- 2,288
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- Raleigh, NC
These little things are called Web Dominators made by MaxPedition. They are great for securing anything to webbing or cargo nets. I use them to secure the excess straps. One on the left is there just for demonstration purposes so you can see how it works.
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ReconH3
Guardian Angel
- Messages
- 2,288
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
Finally installed and secured the PowerTank I got from the Expedition Hardware group buy. Just above that is a BlackHawk fast attack litter. For those who dont know, that's a portable stretcher. I have it there for if needed in an emergency. To the left is a Life Saver Bottle. It's a bottle and filter all in one. It will filter out just about anything no matter how filthy or contaminated the water is. I also have the Life Saver Jerry Can but that only gets taken out in extreme situations. Hopefully never.
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06 H3
a.k.a. "The Jackal"
- Messages
- 9,493
- Location
- Meridian, ID
I love the life saving gear
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ReconH3
Guardian Angel
- Messages
- 2,288
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
Still putting together a proper med kit. Which is the most important.
"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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ReconH3
Guardian Angel
- Messages
- 2,288
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
Finally broke the 10,000 mile barrier!!!
"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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06 H3
a.k.a. "The Jackal"
- Messages
- 9,493
- Location
- Meridian, ID
damn! thats a lot of mods before 10k. I cant wait to see whats done by 20k. I am sure you will have a solution for all the non waterproof electronics by then :wink: